A letter has been circulated to members from the Chief Fire Officers Association requesting a meeting with the joint committee to discussion its concerns about proposals contained in the Building Control Bill 2005. As the Bill will be referred to the select committee shortly, the association has been invited to raise its concerns. I, therefore, welcome Mr. David Carroll, chief fire officer for north Tipperary, vice chairman; Mr. Dave Stuart, chief fire officer for Westmeath, honorary treasurer; and Ms Maria Melia, chief fire officer for Wexford. I thank them for attending. Before they make their presentation, I draw their attention to the fact that while committee members have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call Mr. Stuart to commence the presentation.
Chief Fire Officers Association: Presentation.
Mr. Dave Stuart
Our association welcomes the Building Control Bill 2005 which, if enacted, will strengthen building controls in the State with the positive result of safer buildings and safer facilities for their occupiers. We wish to make a number of observations which will be beneficial to legislators and those charged with the responsibility of ensuring good building practice. I will comment specifically on Part 2 which deals with fire safety and disability access certificates. With regard to the other Parts, particularly that dealing with "registered professionals", we endorse the view of Engineers Ireland — formerly the Institution of Engineers of Ireland — in its letter to the principal officer of the Department seeking to have chartered engineers included as "registered professionals".
We recommend that applications for fire safety certificates, the new disability access certificates and any new "certificates" included in the proposed legislation should be made to prescribed persons on a statutory register. Neither the Building Control Act 1990 nor the Building Control Bill 2005 specifies that buildings must be constructed in accordance with a fire safety certificate, including any conditions attached thereto, only that buildings must be constructed in accordance with the building regulations. This reduces the impact of a fire safety certificate. We recommend that this should be changed to include compliance with the fire safety certificate. We welcome the requirement for buildings that require a fire safety certificate or disability access certificate to remain unoccupied, not operated or unopened until the required certificate is granted by the building control authority.
In the context of the new Bill, I propose to refer to five areas: the seven-day notice; regularisation certificate; disability access certificate; inspection and enforcement; and resources. The fire safety certificate process has contributed significantly to improved building design. However, a number of issues have caused problems since the introduction of the Building Control Act 1990 which the Bill tries to address. These arise primarily where there is a need to start specific work quickly and there is not enough time to apply for and receive a fire safety certificate and, second, where somebody builds without a fire safety certificate.
The association acknowledges there is a need to fast-track certain developments, especially where the works relate to internal changes for which planning permission is generally not required. In these special cases full implementation of the fire safety certificate process is unduly onerous on developers. This is what the seven-day notice proposal is intended to address. However, under the proposed system, the developer must still prepare a fire safety certificate application and the building control authority still has the responsibility for assessing the application and deciding on compliance. The developer may start work seven days after lodging the notice but cannot occupy the building until the fire safety certificate is granted which, in most cases, will be two months or more after the notice is submitted. The intention of the Minister and the Department will not be achieved.
We recommend that the English and Welsh-style building notice should be used for these special cases. Under the English and Welsh system, the building notice procedure does not involve the passing or rejecting of plans. It, therefore, avoids the preparation of a detailed application and is specifically designed to enable some building works to get under way quickly. No protection is afforded, whereby a certificate is issued by the local authority and the developer undertakes the risk of compliance with the building regulations. The building control authority may, however, inspect the works and request design details during construction. The building is constructed in accordance with the building notice. This system would also be acceptable in Ireland, provided it was also limited to certain works.
A regularisation certificate is issued typically where work has commenced and often been completed without an application for a fire safety certificate. Many building control authorities view this as blatantly ignoring the building control system. We recognise that this scenario needs to be addressed. The proposed regularisation certificate is an attempt to deal with the issue. However, we are concerned that the proposed system will be unworkable because it will require building control authorities to inspect and certify works. In the absence of a fire safety certificate, the only way to ensure compliance with the building regulations is by strict monitoring of work during construction. This can only be done through self-certification by prescribed persons on a statutory register. It would be impossible for the building control authority to certify these buildings because, in the first case, it is likely that a building would be substantially or fully completed without the knowledge of the authority and an inspection would be made of a substantially or fully completed building, which would be impossible to carry out. Second, how will an inspector certify the building works if he or she only visits the building on a few occasions during construction? The association recommends a system of self-certification, with the building control authority functioning as auditor and inspectorate. In the case of a regularisation certificate, appeals to An Bord Pleanála would not make sense and should not be permitted.
We welcome and support the provision of disability access certificates. This important initiative will improve buildings and access to them for people with disabilities. There is a contradiction, however, regarding whether the disability access certificate is certifying the design only, as suggested in the explanatory memorandum, or the design and finished building, as suggested in the Bill. We recommend that the applicant should issue a certificate of compliance under Part M and submit this to the building control authority for a certificate of approval. In this case also, appeals to An Bord Pleanála would not make sense and should not be permitted.
It is clear that the success of building control depends on inspection and enforcement. The inspectorate is the building control authority. However, the legislation is unwieldy. In particular, building control inspectors do not have sufficient authority to address non-compliance in a quick and effective manner. For example, there is, effectively, a requirement to go to court to force unco-operative builders to respond positively. We recommend legislation, similar to the recent changes to the Fire Services Act 1981, giving inspecting officers immediate powers up to and including the power to issue a closure notice. Under the Fire Services Act, the availability of this power to inspecting officers is, in most cases, sufficient to bring erring persons to comply. We regret that, despite the best will and great work of the building standards section of the Department, inspection and enforcement in most parts of the State are not satisfactory.
The CFOA supports the Department in its overall policy on building control. However, it is regrettable that, with very few exceptions, the building control function has not been afforded the importance within local authorities it justifiably deserves. Local authorities need to recognise the new and important issue of building control. The current practice of tagging it to the housing, planning or fire sections and so on is totally unsatisfactory. This results in building control, with its ever expanding remit, being relegated below the principal activities of the parent section. It also results in the lack of a champion for building control within the local authority. As a consequence, it leads to inconsistency nationally. The CFOA recommends that, to ensure its overall success, a separate section within the local authority structure should be set up and properly resourced to deal with building control.
Just as the success of building control depends on inspection and enforcement, the success of inspection and enforcement depends on resources. We acknowledge the statement at the end of the explanatory memorandum which refers to "staffing and financial implications". The problem is not money per se, or at least it would not be if the moneys provided by building control fees were ring-fenced for building control. The problem is the lack of people.
The local government staff embargo has made it easier for local authorities to claim they cannot properly resource building control. The current staff embargo seriously constrains the ability of the fire authority to discharge its legal functions as regards fire prevention. This is further exacerbated by the increased workload of processing fire safety certificates resulting from a growing economy. Significant additional resources, technical, clerical and administrative, are required to cater for building control in its present form. This need will clearly increase when the new Bill is enacted, and the new regulations come into force.
One of the objectives of the proposed changes is to capture the unauthorised works being carried out. Previous surveys indicate this could be more than 25% of the works notified to building control authorities. We can, therefore, expect an immediate increase in the overall number of applications. In addition, the increase from one type of application to the proposed range of applications, including the disabled access certificate applications, will result in additional management and administrative functions. This impacts on two specific staff areas. The first relates to clerical, administrative and fire officer resources with regard to fire safety certificates and the new versions of fire safety certificates while the second relates to the new staff needed to process and inspect the new disability and revised disability access certificates. We estimate the number of inspections being carried out could rise by anywhere from 100% to 500%, which would mean a requirement for an equivalent increase in officers. On a positive note, the increase in fees, which could be as high as 250%, will help fund the additional resources required.
The CFOA recommends the removal of the staff embargo for both senior fire officers and for building control, subject to certain departmental restrictions.
Thank you, Mr. Stuart. You have raised a number of important issues.
I welcome the Chief Fire Officers Association and thank it for its previous correspondence and its detailed critique of the legislation. It is important that organisations in the public service inform us in a transparent manner of their views on legislation and issues to which we should direct our attention. Much of this will form the detail of the Bill on Committee Stage. The association's views are welcome.
I wish to raise two issues that may be related. When the Bill was first issued I was concerned about the retrospective regularisation of fire certification and got two different views on this. The impression I got from the Department was that a significant number of constructed buildings had not been fully investigated. Mr. Stuart seems to bear out that view in his presentation where he states that 25% of constructed buildings were not properly verified in terms of fire safety before construction. This is a serious issue. However, I got a different view from the enforcement section of a local authority. I am concerned about that gap. Can Mr. Stuart explain it?
Fire is a serious hazard, but in an apartment complex — many of these have sprung up all over the country — it can be more serious than in a semi-detached house. This raises serious issues for the legislation. If the legislation is passed, will unscrupulous developers be of the view that they can go ahead and build their development and get their fire certificate later? Once a development is constructed, we have no way of knowing whether it is safe. Is Mr. Stuart saying 25% of current construction is not properly certified?
Mr. Stuart
A survey carried out by the building regulations advisory body indicated that was the case. Two aspects of the Bill will probably address this. Under the new legislation people will not be able to open or to operate a building unless they have a fire safety certificate. That will put pressure on people to get the certificate. With regard to somebody building first and then looking for a fire safety certificate, I understand the fees will be significantly greater and will, therefore, act as a disincentive to taking that route. If the building is built, it cannot be opened until the fire safety certificate is issued, for which there is generally a time lag of two months. This will be an incentive for builders to get it right in the first place.
Currently the building is opened and people are permitted to live in apartment complexes without proper certification.
Mr. Stuart
There is a percentage of buildings without fire certificates.
That is a serious issue. Has Mr. Stuart a view on how we can address this? The new legislation will change the situation. In the meantime, however, it is a serious issue for the people who live in these buildings, whether they are hotels, apartments or whatever.
Mr. Stuart
Most of these buildings are probably not apartment blocks or hotels because they tend to be developed in a more professional manner. They are probably other types of buildings.
Could we get a copy of this report? I would like to examine it.
Ms Maria Melia
A survey carried out in 2000 estimated that in ten out of 37 building control areas, between 25% and 50% of works requiring a fire certificate commence and between 10% and 30% are completed without a fire safety certificate. The issue of whether a building development has a fire safety certificate before or after work commences will be picked up by the regularisation certificate. However, what is important is the monitoring of the work during construction. Currently, even if a developer gets a fire safety certificate prior to construction, there is not necessarily any monitoring of the work during construction by a building control or fire officer. For the 8,000 fire safety certificates granted in 2004, only 2,000 inspections were carried out by fire officers and 25% and these were just one-off inspections.
The issue is resources. We either need additional resources to carry out inspections during construction or we need to take the route of self-certification with the building control authority acting as the inspectorate and auditors.
I have a final question. I will return to the issue concerning the 10% to 30% of buildings completed without a fire safety certificate. Who carried out the survey and for whom was it carried out?
Ms Melia
The survey was carried out by BRAB, the Building Regulations Advisory Body. It was a survey of all of the fire authorities at the time.
Is that body within the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government?
Ms Melia
It is the Building Regulations Advisory Body.
I understand the board is made up of builders and the board has an accommodation address within the Department.
Ms Melia
I am a member of BRAB.
I rang the Department and tried to get clarity on the matter.
Ms Melia
The body comprises a chief fire officer, a building control officer, a representative from Dublin City Council and a number of builders and architects.
I am trying to understand the situation. I asked for a copy of that report, but did not get it. Can we get a copy of it?
I want to clarify another point. Is Ms Melia saying the buildings looked at were non-residential buildings? I am trying to understand whether there is a threat to people who live in apartment complexes.
Ms Melia
We can stand over the fact that fire safety certificates are being applied for and in 2004, some 8,000 were issued. However, we cannot stand over how developments are being built. We can stand over the design, but the industry is responsible for the construction. We monitor approximately 25%, but our monitoring system does not monitor the building from start to completion. Also, we do not issue completion certifications. The certificate certifies the design. If the building is built in accordance with the design, it will comply with the building regulations.
The point is some buildings do not have a fire certificate.
Ms Melia
That figure could be as high as 30%.
That is what worries me.
Will the delegation forward a copy of the draft report to the committee?
Ms Melia
Yes.
I welcome the representatives of the Chief Fire Officers Association and thank them for their comprehensive presentation. We should remain focused and take note of the fact that the survey was conducted six or seven years ago. Perhaps the delegates can comment on whether there have been improvements since in applications for fire certificates for such buildings.
In their presentation the delegates have referred to the current practice of tagging building control to the housing, planning or other sectionof a county council. I would welcome some practical examples of how this causes difficulties in terms of building control and the advantages that autonomy would yield to the service.
Ms Melia
A survey was carried out in 2000. The only information available now would be anecdotal or based on our own experience, which would indicate that non-compliance is still at the level of 25%.
That is worrying.
Mr. Stuart
I will answer the Deputy's second question. Building control is not the responsibility of a separate section in every local authority. In my local authority it is attached to the fire section and in others to the planning or housing section. That is problematic because sufficient resources are not allocated to it. Building control is not afforded equal status, as it would be in a separate section.
By way of additional resources, recognition, staff and so forth. Is that correct?
Mr. Stuart
Yes.
Surely the case could be made that the planning section is the most appropriate one to have responsibility for building control. With regard to fire certificates, the delegates referred to the fact that planning permission was related to compliance with building regulations. If a person builds a one-off rural house with a septic tank, it has to be certified by an appropriate professional. Where an application is made to the planning section of a local authority, the fire aspect must be dealt with in the form of a fire officer's report on the building. If the conditions attached to planning permission are not complied with and an official signs off on a building, based on a false declaration, this has implications under our planning laws. If fire officers are carrying out a final inspection and discover a building does not comply, it should not be opened. If a building requires a renewed fire officer's certificate every year, it should be closed if it does not comply with the planning laws. The case could be made that the planning section should work in tandem with the fire officer on building control.
Mr. Stuart
The planning sector is concerned more about the way a building will look when built rather than its construction.
Professional architects or engineers must sign off on plans for a building for the purpose of obtaining planning permission and the fire aspects must be taken into consideration. Surely there is some test of compliance before a building is subject to a final inspection by fire officers.
Mr. Stuart
The two systems run independently. For example, we cannot impose fire conditions on a planning application because this is not allowed for under legislation.
No, but fire officers can pass comment on the drawings as submitted in order that planners can take their views into consideration.
Mr. Stuart
Yes, that is the normal procedure, in the same way that an area engineer would comment on plans from the perspective of roads, traffic and so on. That would happen in the normal course but it does not necessarily mean that the planning section is the best one to look after building control matters. Building control is concerned with the built environment, whereas planning is concerned with how buildings look.
My point relates to the duplication of inspections carried out on a building. If it does not meet planning regulations, the planners should bring this to the attention of the applicant.
Mr. Stuart
Perhaps but the planners are interested in how a building looks. Their concerns are very different from those of a person involved in dealing with building control matters or a fire officer.
Let us take the example of a building that is altered without planning permission. Surely the owner is breaking the regulations and should submit a new application. It should not arise that a fire officer enters a building that has not been built in accordance with the approved plans.
Mr. Stuart
There could be duplication.
Mr. David O’Carroll
The important point to note is that one must apply for a fire certificate in advance of completion of a building. However, very few post-construction inspections are carried out by fire officers. In other words, in 75% of cases, the building is certified at design stage. There may be a once-off post-construction inspection due to a lack of resources but it does not generally happen.
I welcome the presentation from the Chief Fire Officers Association. The delegation has pointed out that inspection and enforcement are very unsatisfactory in most parts of the country. There are not enough people on the ground because of the recruitment embargo imposed some time ago. In effect, it is a chicken and egg situation. If one goes to a local authority to make a complaint, it will not have the staff to deal with it. It is up to politicians to deliver on staff numbers. For the new Building Control Bill to be effective when enacted, extra staff and resources will be required.
I have received complaints from persons who let property from time to time. People are coming from all over the world to work in Ireland. Rents are high. Because of this, one often hears of cases where 11 or 12 people are living in a two room apartment. This has serious health and safety implications and must be addressed. Many buildings are housing far more people than is safe. What is the view of the delegation on this matter? As far as I am aware, nobody is inspecting such buildings because of a lack of inspection personnel. This issue was brought to my attention by persons who are letting property but it appears nothing can be done about it.
Mr. Stuart
As I mentioned in the presentation, the booming economy has put fire officers under enormous pressure. A considerable amount of their time is spent processing fire safety certificate applications. In most local authorities there has been no increase in the number of fire officers, but the number of fire safety certificate applications has risen significantly. They have also become significantly more complex since the new regulations came into force. That is part of the resource problem mentioned.
A number of years ago we spent a lot of our time checking buildings. When I joined the fire service, we regularly inspected buildings, apartments and flats. We do not have the resources to do this anymore because our resources are tied up in dealing with the legislative aspects of the fire safety certificate process. That is why I specifically mentioned that we did not have enough resources. Clearly, when the new Bill is enacted, the resources required will increase significantly. The recruitment embargo presents a problem. If I approach my manager to seek additional staff, I will be told that to achieve this, staff will have to be removed from another area.
We also have an increasing population.
Mr. Stuart
Absolutely.
There are planning application fees. Surely local authorities should meet the needs of fire officers with this funding. What Mr. Stuart is saying is that approximately 25% of buildings do not have fire certificates. After the Bill is passed, buildings will not be allowed to be opened without such a certificate. How can we regularise the requirments for existing buildings, given the increase in the number of apartment buildings and so on? Should there be an inventory in each local authority of the buildings that do not have a fire safety certificate and should we pursue them to ensure retrospective compliance with the law? While in one sense they cannot be tested, there is a need to police this area and enforce the regulations retrospectively in the interests of public safety and those who live in them.
Mr. Stuart
Fire officers are capable of inspecting buildings, even completed ones, to ensure they are safe for the use to which they will be put. It comes back to the question of resources. If necessary, the Fire Services Act can be used to ensure a building is brought up to the required standard.
Is it possible to serve a notice on the owner of a building? Can the owner be informed that the building does not have a fire safety certificate and asked to attend on a specific day with his or her architect? Should we be doing this?
Mr. O’Carroll
If one steps back a litte, the system of building control has only been in place for 15 or 16 years. We had a legacy of a huge number of buildings which had never received a fire safety certificate. We were in the business of inspecting the built environment, including nursing homes and hotels which were visited regularly by fire officers. Reports were made in agreement with the owners on programmes of work to improve fire safety elements. As mentioned, we have now been pulled away from that work and are tied to our desks doing paperwork. We would have no problem in picking up on those buildings that have been missed out if we are given the necessary resources. We know what the risks are, where they are and how to address them but it is a case of putting feet on the ground.
It is a big job that has to be done now.
Mr. O’Carroll
It is. Just because a building has not been built in accordance with a fire safety certificate does not mean it is not safe.
I accept that but the point is that if there is serious loss of life, the blame will be put on us and fire officers also.
Mr. O’Carroll
It is a very serious issue.
We should deal with it.
Ms Melia
The joint committee now has the information. It is a question of taking up the matter with the Minister.
I will certainly raise it with him.
I am sorry that I missed the start of the presentation. On the matter of staff and resources, is there a problem with the supply of suitably qualified personnel? I believe an engineering degree is required. Apart from the staff embargo, are there sufficient qualified personnel? If, as a result of the Bill, more resources are allocated, will there be a problem in filling posts?
Mr. Stuart
I do not believe there will, although we will not know until it happens.
Some local authorities have a difficulty in recruiting road engineers and have to recruit abroad. That is an issue that should be looked at. In many cases, leaving certificate students — males and females — are encouraged to pursue a degree course in engineering. I am concerned that there might be a problem with the supply of qualified personnel.
Mr. Stuart
I am not aware of a problem but if the numbers were to increase significantly, there might be a shortfall in the short term. Ultimately, the problem should be sorted out.
For the benefit of members, representatives of the SIPTU fire brigage national committee will be in attendance at our meeting on 26 April. I thank the three delegates for making themselves available this afternoon and travelling to Dublin to attend the meeting. They have raised a number of concerns. We will begin our deliberations on Committee Stage of the Building Control Bill on 25 May. It is intended that representatives of the Royal Institute of Architects of Ireland, the Competition Authority and a group of independent architects will come before the joint committee before then. We will bring the views of the delegation to the attention of the Minister. I am sure spokespersons have also noted its views in the context of the forthcoming debate.
Five draft reports on EU proposals have been circulated to members. As the joint committee has at various meetings considered the issues raised, I suggest we formally agree the draft reports. COM (2004) 23 deals with direct support schemes under the CAP; COM (2005) 705 deals with research under the seventh framework programme; COM (2005) 447 deals with ambient air quality; COM (2003) 370 deals with EURATOM, while COM (2006) 284 deals with GM products. Is it agreed to lay the reports before the Houses? Agreed.
As our visit to the Environmental Protection Agency is scheduled to take place on 12 April, our next scheduled meeting will take place on 26 April.
The joint committee adjourned at 4.10 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 26 April 2006.