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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Feb 2004

Business of Joint Committee.

The first item on the agenda is the draft minutes of the meeting of the joint committee on 28 January last, which have been circulated. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. Apologies have been received from Senator Joe Higgins.

I would like to deal with correspondence, the work programme, statutory instruments and any other business before we speak to the representatives of the Combat Poverty Agency. Item No. 3 will be the last item on the agenda.

A number of items of correspondence need to be considered. A letter with enclosures, which was sent to me by the Irish Charities Tax Reform Group, has been circulated to members. The group seeks support for amendments to the Finance Bill. Such changes, along with the possibility of taking evidence on the Bill, are matters for the select committee only. The joint committee can opt to consider a report on the policy issues that have been raised by the group. The committee's workload before Committee Stage of the Finance Bill is so heavy that it would not be realistic to deal with this issue formally. I suggest that we reply to the group stating that we regret it is not practical for the joint committee to consider the issue formally before Committee Stage of the Finance Bill, but also pointing out that its concerns have been drawn to the attention of all members of the committee who will have the opportunity to table amendments. The committee will also send a letter to the Minister for Finance, asking him to take on board the contents of the ICTRG's submission before we reach Committee Stage of the Finance Bill. I understand the Bill is being published today. Can I take it that this approach to the ICTRG is approved? We will study the document and send it to the Minister, asking him to take full account of it.

A number of people met representatives of the ICTRG and officials from the Department of Finance outside the committee last year. If I remember correctly, it was a positive and acceptable way of proceeding, as far as the group was concerned. Is the Chairman proposing a similar meeting on this occasion?

No. Last year's meeting related to tax relief on donations. The Minister has made significant improvements in that regard. If one examines the committee's workload, one will see that we have to deal with four or five Bills before mid-March. We have a phenomenal workload. We will have to meet on several occasions to discuss Bills on Committee Stage. We will be meeting every week until mid-March to discuss legislation.

The Chairman's proposal is agreed.

The committee will send the group's documents directly to the Minister.

On 10 December last, the committee considered a letter from the ASTI concerning the recommendations of the Commission on Public Service Pensions. It agreed to seek a briefing from the Department of Finance on the implementation of the commission's report. A briefing note and a copy of the report of the working group on the implementation of the recommendations have been received and circulated to all members. This issue is listed in our draft work programme. I propose that we decide how we intend to proceed on this issue in the context of the work programme. There will be legislation as a result of the budget announcement of changes in public service pension arrangements. Such a Bill will be discussed on Committee Stage by the select committee in March. Members will have an opportunity to speak on the matter on Second Stage in the Dáil and on Committee Stage. We can decide if we wish to discuss it further, as part of our work programme, at that stage. Is it agreed to consider the matter as part of our work programme? Agreed.

We will return to the presentation of the Combat Poverty Agency when we have completed our internal discussions. The second draft of the 2004 work programme has been circulated. It includes issues that were suggested by members of the committee at the meeting of 21 January last. The clerk to the committee has sought from the Departments of the Taoiseach and Finance a comprehensive list of the bodies in the committee's remit. I understand the Departments are compiling the list at present. We can select and prioritise bodies for examination when the list has been received.

I propose that we review the list of issues for examination under the work programme. We can make any deletions or additions that the committee deems appropriate. If we are to make progress on the work programme, we need to be conscious of the volume of work of the select committee. I say this to keep members of the joint committee informed. We have to consider the adverse effect of the select committee's business on our work programme. For the information of members, I wish to state that I have tentatively agreed the following arrangements for the forthcoming Bills:

Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Bill 2003 — Committee Stage

Wednesday, 18 February 2004; 2 p.m.-8.30 p.m.

Thursday, 19 February 2004; 12 noon-4 p.m.

Finance Bill 2004 — Committee Stage

Tuesday, 24 February 2004.

Wednesday, 25 February 2004.

Thursday, 26 February 2004.

Public Service Management (Recruitment and Appointments) Bill 2003 — Committee Stage

Wednesday, 3 March 2004; all day.

Public Service (Pensions) Bill 2004 — Committee Stage.

Tuesday, 9 March 2004.

We might finish the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Bill, which has been referred to the select committee, in three or four hours on Wednesday, 18 February, but we will book the committee room until 8.30 p.m. and, if needs be, for Thursday, 19 February. I hope it will be possible to complete Committee Stage in one sitting, but it depends on the number of amendments. We will allow extra time on 19 February, if necessary. It was not a particularly contentious Bill on Second Stage. It may not take all day to deal with the Public Service Management (Recruitment and Appointments) Bill 2003, which is expected to be referred to the select committee shortly. We will start our consideration of Committee Stage of the Bill at 10.30 a.m. or 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 3 March.

The Public Service (Pensions) Bill has not yet been published, but it needs to be passed, enacted and enforced by 1 April next. I understand that it is intended to publish the Bill on 19 February. It will be discussed on Second Stage in the House. The Minister has asked that it be considered on Committee Stage in the week beginning 8 March 2004.

It is likely that the Dáil will order the select committee to consider the Finance Bill between 24 and 26 February. It normally takes the committee three full days to deal with the Finance Bill. It is expected that Estimates will be referred to the select committee later this month or early next month. We have an extensive range of work at select committee level. We have not yet decided on provisional dates for the Committee Stage debates on the National Economic and Social Development Office Bill 2002, which has already been referred to the select committee, and the International Development Association (Amendment) Bill 2003, which will be referred to this committee when Second Stage has been concluded. It often happens that the committee has a very busy schedule at this time of the year, until the beginning of April. We usually have many Bills to deal with.

The draft work programme has been presented to members. Would anyone like to make a further comment? I stress that we are awaiting a comprehensive list from the Departments of the Taoiseach and Finance in respect of the bodies under their remit which come under our jurisdiction. We will include the bodies in our work programme after the list has been received and we will prioritise them at that stage. I do not intend to start to set priorities until the full list has been received from the Departments.

A number of bodies that will be on the list have never been called before this Dáil or a previous Dáil. It is important that we speak to them. Perhaps we will speak about the work programme again when we have received further information. Is that agreed? Agreed. Most aspects of the work programme will be dealt with after the end of March. We may meet before then, but there will not be too many joint committee meetings in the immediate future.

The next item on the agenda is a statutory instrument.

I would like to ask one question. I apologise for breaking the Chairman's run, as he was doing so well. I asked for a discussion on the co-existence of the euro and non-euro currencies on this island and I note that it has been provided for. I raised the issue of the proposed review of the battery of tax reliefs at the last meeting. Is this in place in terms of the issues for examination outlined on the last pages?

That is item 12. Perhaps we should broaden that to include other reliefs as we have only mentioned properties.

I did not recognise that at first. When is it proposed to prioritise this in our work programme?

I hope to do that at the next meeting of the joint committee. I do not have a date for that meeting yet due to the volume of select committee work we have to do on Committee Stages of the legislation before us. I expect it will be a few weeks.

We have an extensive list of some 21 matters.

We will not get to them all.

I presume we will pick from that.

Yes, together with the list of bodies the Departments of Finance and the Taoiseach inform us are also under the remit of the committee. Many of those organisations have not been brought before the committee for several years. There is a gap in terms of the number of bodies which could and should have been brought before the committee, but have not been. When we have the comprehensive list, we will prioritise it.

It will be a couple of weeks before we have another joint meeting due to the work programme of the select committee.

At our meeting on 14 January, the committee agreed to seek briefing notes on statutory instruments 718 and 723 of 2003. These notes have been circulated. The joint committee has been informed that SI 718 was signed on 18 December after the statutory period of 21 days, during which it was available in the Oireachtas Library, had elapsed. Consequently, the time for the committee to consider the instrument and report on it before its signing has passed. The 21 day period during which SI 723 can be scrutinised is still running because, we are informed, the relevant Act starts the clock running after it has been signed. This is not what we had expected.

We were not made aware of SI 718 in sufficient time to scrutinise it within the 21 days. I propose the committee writes to the Department of Finance to ensure that when the draft is being prepared, it is sent immediately to us. The Department laid copies of the instrument in the Library which it understood to mean that every one of us visited the Oireachtas Library and was aware it was there. Unfortunately, that was not the case. We will ask the Department of Finance when preparing draft statutory instruments in future to send them to our committee directly. What happened is slightly unfair although the Department was within its rights technically.

Is this instrument designed to allow the Department to establish new subsidiaries?

The note on SI 718 is before us and we will come to it in a moment. Its purpose is to bring certain State agencies within the remit of the National Development Finance Agency. We have missed the boat and it is disappointing to find ourselves in this position. It was only brought to my attention this week.

It is most unsatisfactory that this is the case. Can we confirm that the deadline of the passage of 21 sitting days of the Houses of the Oireachtas has passed?

The deadline has passed as set out in the briefing note. The order was signed on 18 December.

I have the briefing note from the Department which I presume has come since we made the request. I am not surprised that when it was referred to the Minister for Transport in respect of the Railway Procurement Agency he recommended the inclusion of Coras Iompar Éireann, Iarnród Éireann and Bus Átha Cliath. I have some concern given that this is being done in the context of public private partnership and, perhaps in the Minister's head, privatisation. I would have liked to have the opportunity to tease the matter out a little further. I am deeply concerned about the entirety of this matter. While my concerns might not prove founded, they are certainly not allayed by the information the Chairman is offering the committee that the deadline has passed and we have no function in real terms at today's meeting during which SI 718 was to be addressed. I concur with the Chairman that he should write to the Department.

I would also like, if possible, to secure a further opinion on the outworking or net effect of the passing of this statutory instrument. If we cannot tease the matter out in this committee, I am anxious that the Chairman should secure an opinion from the Departments, including the Department of Transport as Deputy Brennan is the person to whom reference has been made. The instrument was referred to him and he suggested a statutory instrument of like effect should apply to the broad range of public transport companies which I have already named. As a public representative concerned about this particular area, I would like to know more. I ask the Chairman to request the clerk to write accordingly to secure whatever additional information is possible from the Departments of Finance and Transport in line with my concerns.

We are happy to do that. By way of confirmation, the draft order was laid in the Oireachtas Library on 29 September 2003. On receipt of confirmation from the Oireachtas Library that the statutory period had elapsed and no resolution disapproving of the draft order had been passed by either House of the Oireachtas, the Minister signed the order into law on 18 December. The dates have been confirmed and double checked with the Oireachtas Library. We will certainly do as Deputy Ó Caoláin asks. We will request that a better system is put in place to ensure the committee is formally notified of any draft statutory instrument from the Department under our control.

I think the Chairman meant to say we missed the train rather than the boat, or the bus as the case may be. There is no basis for talking about the privatisation of any of our national transport companies. The Minister has made his position perfectly clear on all three. There is a great deal of investment in public transport which did not take place in the past. It is perfectly sensible to provide for public private partnerships in respect of the Railway Procurement Agency and the three companies. There is perhaps enough genuine cause for debate and concern without becoming paranoid about matters which are clearly not Government intentions.

The disappointing feature of this matter is that one of the problems with the National Finance Agency, which we discussed on an earlier occasion, is that it is refusing to publish the comparators under which it compares the public undertaking of projects with the public private partnership approach. As we have said on many occasions, this committee is being expected to accept a pig in a poke in respect of the agency's judgment that it is better to go down one road or the other. That does not accord with any principle of sound accountability to Parliament in respect of the activities of bodies like this. For that reason it is particularly disappointing to see the agency expand its remit into new areas while maintaining the protection of secrecy with which the Minister has provided it.

I will remember Senator Mansergh's words today and I hope sincerely he will not have to eat them. Not all the indicators give me the same comfort he clearly has regarding this issue. However, I welcome the fact that he seems to be equally committed to the public transport system we need. He is not wearing a very big hat today.

The 21 sitting days within which SI 723 can be scrutinised are still running because, we are informed, the relevant Act sets the clock running after it has been signed. There are clearly different legal procedures concerning the signing of orders. In the earlier case, the 21 days ran from the date on which the draft was put in the Oireachtas Library.

I propose to ensure that the committee has adequate notice of all future proposals. As I stated, we will write to the Department of the Taoiseach. Members have received a full briefing note on SI 723 on Value-Added Tax (Invoices and Other Documents) (Amendments) Regulations 2003. Have members any comments on the briefing note?

I am totally dependent on the briefing note presented to us but I do not have any difficulty with what is proposed or explained therein in regard to electronic VAT invoicing, which is at the core of the proposition. The amending regulations cater for both electronic invoicing and traditional paper invoicing. The proposal fits into an eminently sensible development to ensure a level playing field, not only here but within the EU. I do not have a difficulty with the proposal and other members might be able to pinpoint something that we should be concerned about.

Is it agreed that we do not need to scrutinise it and lay a report before the Oireachtas? Agreed.

The next meeting of our committee would normally take place on Wednesday, 18 February. The select committee will be meeting for most of that day and possibly on 19 February. Therefore I propose that we do not set a date for the next meeting of the joint committee in view of the commitments of the select committee.

It was agreed on our meeting of 14 January that a group of members of the joint committee would meet a delegation of the Committee on Budgets of the European Parliament this Friday at 12 noon. The meeting will be informal and the group will report back to the joint committee on the meeting. All members are invited to attend but I am keen to ensure that there are at least two Government members and two Opposition members present. I am sure the meeting will have concluded by 1.30 p.m. because the delegation consists of only two or three parliamentarians and some officials. I will not be present on Friday. Can we contact the convenors of both groups to make sure we have at least two people from each side present?

I regret that I will not be able to participate. It was my intention to attend the Bank of Scotland in Ireland presentation of last week but, as I indicated to the hosts, it depended on the schedule of the Chamber. As it transpired, we were dealing with legislation that was directly allied to our particular brief and therefore I was not able to attend. Could the Chair indicate whether others attended? Was there information on the clearing system pertaining in Britain that could be circulated to members who had not the opportunity to attend? This would inform them and enable them to make comparisons with the circumstances that apply in this jurisdiction.

Deputy Ned O'Keeffe, Conor Lenihan and I were present and Deputy Burton arrived at the very end. She was obviously tied up with the work in the Chamber. We did receive a presentation, which I believe will be circulated to all members. It was a PR presentation on behalf of the bank and that was all it was.

It comes as a big surprise.

No, it was not a surprise at all. We did not receive any of the information Deputy Ó Caoláin was looking for. It was interesting. Deputy Ned O'Keeffe continued his questioning approach with the Bank of Scotland, as he did when it was before the committee.

On Friday, we will ensure there are two members from the Government side and two from the Opposition at the informal meeting, including the Independent Senator, if he is able to attend

I cannot be here on Friday morning.

That is fine. It is important for our own sake that we have four members present. I hope we will get two from each side.

Sitting suspended at 3.37 p.m. and resumed at 3.40 p.m.
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