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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Sep 2004

Decentralisation Programme: Presentation.

I propose that a ten minute presentation should be made and each party, including Independent members, will have ten minutes for questions and answers.

The Association of Chief Executives of State Agencies will make a presentation on decentralisation. The committee has decided, as part of its examination of the decentralisation programme, that it needs to hear from representatives of State agencies, whose perspective is, in some important ways, distinct from other Departments and offices, which will be decentralised.

The association forwarded its submission to the decentralisation implementation committee to this committee, which was of considerable assistance, and offered to discuss the matter with the committee. The association is represented by Ruth Barrington, chief executive; Seamus Purcell, chief executive of the Higher Education and Training Awards Council; Seán Ó Foghlú, chief executive of the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland; and Leonie Lunny, chief executive of Comhairle. They are all welcome. We will hear a short presentation followed by a question and answer session with committee members.

While the comments of Members of the Oireachtas are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of visitors are not. Members are reminded that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the committee or outside the Houses.

Dr. Ruth Barrington

On behalf of the Association of Chief Executives of State Agencies, I thank the committee for the opportunity to present the issues which we submitted to the Government committee on the implementation of the decentralisation programme. I am not the chief executive of the association. We do not have a chief executive. I am the current chair of the association.

We are an association of chief executive officers of just over 60 State agencies. Our agencies together employ an estimated 6,000 people. We are responsible for a broad range of services to the general public, to client groups and to other public and private bodies. We have given the committee a list of the names of the chief executives who are members and their agencies.

The association plays an active role in helping to bring the overall perspective of State agencies to bear on the national public policy agenda and to inform our members of developments in public policy which affect their agencies. For example, we played a leading role, with the support of the Institute of Public Administration, in publishing an on-board guide which is now the standard reference work for corporate government in public agencies. We have also been active in liaising with the Department of Finance on the modernisation agenda, Sustaining Progress and the implementation of the Mullarkey report as it affects State agencies. This will give the committee a flavour of the kind of things in which we have been involved.

Nineteen of the member agencies were included in the Government's decentralisation programme announced last December. A further 11 organisations in the health sector are affected by the relocation proposals but, since we made our submission, there has been a decision to deal with them separately so I will not refer to them again.

State agencies were established by Government to carry out specialist functions. As a result of the recognition of the particular purpose to be achieved, we were established to carry out a particular purpose with the necessary freedom to achieve that end. The model of a State agency allows the recruitment or assignment of staff with specialised knowledge, qualifications and expertise to achieve the purpose for which Government established the agency. The majority of State agencies are bodies corporate in law and we have boards to which the chief executives are accountable. This distinguishes us in significant ways from Departments. The primary responsibility of chief executives in State agencies is to manage the functions which have been delegated to us by our corporate boards.

The principal concern of chief executives whose agencies are to relocate from Dublin is that we should be able to continue to carry out the functions for which our boards were established. In this context, the retention of staff with specialised knowledge, qualifications and expertise is of utmost importance. We are concerned that the corporate knowledge and experience built up over the years through the staff of our agencies will not be lost. We draw the committee's attention to the employment status of those employed in our agencies. Our staff includes public servants with very specific contracts of employment to the agency in which they work, civil servants on secondment from their parent Departments and also non-established civil servants.

In the light of these general considerations, the association brought the following matters to the attention of the decentralisation implementation committee. We sought that the management of State agencies should be represented at central negotiations to ensure that the functions the agencies are statutorily bound to carry out are protected in the implementation of the programme and the very special accountability arrangements in the majority of State agencies, that is, to their boards, is recognised, and the management of State agencies retain the right to select and appoint staff with the competencies appropriate to the specialised business of the organisation. Given the complexity of employment arrangements of staff in State agencies and the variety of options open to staff, any redeployment arrangements should be as flexible as possible.

The association sees merit in having an integrated redeployment arrangement for the civil and public service for all staff and agencies affected by the relocation programme. The option to redeploy, for example, should not be closed at a certain date but should remain open for a significant period after staff have moved to the new location. The position of staff in State agencies who are public servants and who hold a precise contract of employment with an individual Stage agency should be recognised and staff on time-limited contracts should be reassured that their relocation is voluntary and that their contract status will not disadvantage them. There should be a transition period during which staff who exercise their right not to transfer can train their replacements. The additional cost associated with such training, including the salary and overheads of overlapping staff, needs to be built into the funding of the agencies to facilitate the transfer of skills and knowledge. Based on the experiences of some of our member agencies which have previously relocated, it may be necessary to maintain flexibility in the recruitment of highly specialised staff and in the relocation of such staff if they are to be retained or recruited or to meet the needs of a particular client group for whom there is a statutory obligation to provide services.

The needs of agencies in relation to electronic communication, access to other communications infrastructure, public transport and airports, which are vital to the performance of the functions of agencies, should receive the same consideration as the provision of accommodation is receiving. For some agencies, broadband connectivity is essential and should be in place before relocation takes place.

The additional responsibilities on agencies of maintaining functions while relocating must be recognised and, simultaneously, making progress on the programme of public service modernisation should be taken into account in the verification process under Sustaining Progress and any subsequent national agreement. Given the association's interest in corporate governance, attention also needs to be given to the implications for good corporate governance of the relocation of Stage agencies.

Given the national statutory remit of State agencies, a great deal of the time of chief executives is spent liaising with parent Departments, other State agencies with complementary mandates and social partners, and interfacing with the legal system, the private sector, non-governmental agencies and representative groups generally. If the quality of the contribution of the work of State agencies to public life is to be maintained, agencies will need to be resourced for the extra time and complexity involved in ensuring that those aspects of Government activity for which they are responsible are joined up.

Does the Association of Chief Executives of State Agencies include both commercial and non-commercial State agencies? For example, is the National Roads Authority part of the group?

Dr. Barrington

No, it is not.

Can you explain to us, as parliamentarians, whom you represent? I am trying to get a fix in my mind as to who is in and who is out of your association.

Dr. Barrington

Traditionally, the commercial State agencies had a separate organisation. We are, essentially, the non-commercial State agencies.

The National Roads Authority is non-commercial. It is not very commercial in most people's eyes.

Dr. Barrington

Membership is not compulsory.

How many State agencies are not members of your association?

Dr. Barrington

It is difficult to know. I do not think there is a record anywhere of the total number of State agencies.

Of the agencies listed under the decentralisation programme, how many are members?

Dr. Barrington

Nineteen of the member organisations were listed on the Government's programme last December.

Nineteen are part of your association. Were other State agencies listed for decentralisation which are not part of your association?

Dr. Barrington

Yes.

Do you know which ones? I know they are not within your association.

Dr. Barrington

FÁS, the NRA and Enterprise Ireland, for example.

These might seem like basic questions to you. Some State agencies are not part of your association. Is that correct?

Dr. Barrington

Yes.

I am merely seeking to clarify the matter from the committee's point of view.

What is the aggregate number of posts affected within the 19 agencies represented by the association?

Dr. Barrington

The figure that has been in the public domain is approximately 2,200.

How many of those are employed within the 19 agencies?

Dr. Barrington

The majority of them.

Is it correct that the vast majority of them come from within the 19 agencies?

Dr. Barrington

Yes.

It has been agreed that each party will have ten minutes for questions and answers.

I welcome the representatives from the Association of Chief Executives of State Agencies and thank them for their interesting contribution and the hand-out provided.

Am I correct that approximately 50% of the association's membership will be affected by decentralisation in that 19 agencies and 11 bodies in the health sector are peripherally involved?

Dr. Barrington

No, not all the 11 health agencies affected by the health reform programme are members of the association.

How many of those agencies are members of the association?

Dr. Barrington

Approximately five.

So, approximately 24 of the 60 agencies represented by the association are involved?

Dr. Barrington

Yes. We are all affected to the extent that our staff may apply to move or to take up potential vacancies.

I appreciate that. However, I asked that question because Dr. Barrington indicated that not all agencies are members of the association.

Dr. Barrington

That is correct.

The decision to relocate is voluntary. Of the 60 agencies represented by the association, 19 are directly involved and five others are indirectly involved.

Dr. Barrington

Yes.

I merely wished to clarify that position. I appreciate the association's contribution and position in this regard. The association has raised a number of important points which need to be addressed. In particular, it is seeking to reassure contract workers, those on time limited contracts, that in the event of their opting not to decentralise their contracts will not be interfered with and we must ensure that is the position. It is important the message goes out that this is a voluntary scheme.

The association also raised concerns regarding those who opt not to transfer in terms of their being required to train their replacements and the cost factor involved in that regard. What are the difficulties from the association's perspective in terms of the Government's decentralisation programme as announced? Does the association have concerns with the overall programme or only in the areas identified? Also, the association raised concerns regarding broadband connectivity, something to which we would not be in a position to respond as it does not come within our remit. As far as I am aware broadband is currently available in practically all locations.

Does the association foresee major difficulties, other than those identified in the hand-out, in implementing the overall decentralisation programme? What is the association's principal position on it?

Dr. Barrington

The association is not commenting on the Government decision. It is not for us to do so.

That is not my question. I want to know the association's position regarding implementation of that decision.

Dr. Barrington

We have examined implementation of the programme from the point of view of the agencies we represent. A fundamental problem arises in the context of our agencies having been established to carry out a specialised function. To do that, we have either recruited staff with particular specialist skills such as research, legal or medical skills or assigned and trained staff over a considerable period in the type of skills required to carry out specialised functions. A decision to relocate an agency raises many issues for us as CEOs in terms of whether the staff will relocate with that agency. If they do not the agency is at risk of not being able to carry out its statutory functions. That is the fundamental issue for us. My colleague, Mr. Puirséil, wishes to comment further on the matter.

Mr. Séamus Puirséil

The fundamental responsibility of each agency is to implement its mission as set out by statute and as agreed by the board which governs it. An agency which loses staff must find suitable people to fulfil the required functions, a task undertaken in the normal run of things on an ongoing basis. It is easy enough to replace one or two staff in a particular year. However, difficulties arise when a significant number of staff have to be replaced at a particular time. The figures speculated for the next round indicate a requirement to replace a large number of people. If that is the policy to be implemented, so be it. It is the job of Government to make policy and it is ours to implement it. However, in doing so, we need to be in a position to recruit the appropriate staff. Our inclusion in the redeployment plans for the entire public service presents us with significant difficulties and is a matter of serious concern to us.

Deputy Finneran alluded to our concerns regarding broadband connectivity and other matters. That is the type of infrastructure needed to enable us do our jobs. If we are to relocate, so be it but they are the type of things we need to do the job. We are concerned, as Dr. Barrington stated, that there is proper corporate governance, transparency and accountability and that we do the job right, issues about which we speak all the time. We want to do the job we were given but there are certain things we need to do it. Matters of general policy are for Government.

What was the association's experience in terms of the earlier decentralisation programmes? What involvement, if any, did it have in the programmes which took place during the past 15 or 16 years?

Ms Leonie Lunny

Very little and isolated. The Legal Aid Board is one example of a member organisation that decentralised to Cahirciveen in the past number of years. An interesting fact is that a very low percentage of people went to Cahirciveen and it was an entirely new recruitment or transfer group who took up posts there. One of the issues at the time was that although it was a State agency, the staff who were transferred were civil servants.

The big difference for many of the State agencies is that staff are recruited directly through the newspapers. People apply for a particular job specification and that is the job and contract they have with the organisation. For example, the Legal Aid Board staff who transferred would have been civil servants and it is hard to come up with an example of decentralisation of a statutory body whose staff were directly appointed to it.

Are there any examples in the commercial State companies with whom the organisation has a decent relationship that the representatives can recall?

Dr. Barrington

We do not have members who could inform us on that point. However, it is interesting that the public servants in the free Legal Aid Board remained in Dublin and the civil servants transferred to Cahirciveen.

I was surprised to learn when the trade unions came before the committee that not one of them had seen a business case presented to show there was a good and coherent case for the move. Have agency members seen the business case presented for the various moves?

Dr. Barrington

To outline some of the background, we are pleased that we have had two meetings with officials of the Department of Finance who informed us of the Government programme and the procedures that were being put in place. Parent Departments have also kept member agencies informed of developments and some member agencies have met with the Department of Finance. However, it is important to stress that these were exchanges of information.

Our agencies are not, although this is one of the things we have sought from the decentralisation implementation committee, represented around the table in negotiations. We have particular statutory specialist functions that we believe should influence the way in which the programme is implemented.

Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú

Member agencies were generally informed around the time of the Government announcement. Therefore, we were not involved in any planning for the announcement but were informed of it. The approach taken by the Department of Finance has been that we must each have our own implementation and business plans and link them into the Department's business planning.

To clarify the point of my question, we presume the Department of Finance had a business case model and that, for example, when it decided to move the probation and welfare service to Navan, or whatever, some coherent business case set out the regional advantages, how the organisation of it would minimise disruption to any service and how it thought the plan would work. I would have thought that the first thing to happen would be that the Department would present the effective business case to the affected agency showing the basis on which it took the decision, its strengths and weaknesses and what considerations needed to be taken into account.

I was amazed that the trade unions had seen no such document. Have the chief executives of the State agencies seen such a document from the Department of Finance? Such a document would provide the input around which the agencies could build their business plan or point out that the Department had not properly considered "X" or "Y" in examining the situation. I am beginning to get the feeling that no chief executive saw any business case presented by the Department of Finance before or after the decision.

Dr. Barrington

It seems there was none.

That speaks for itself. Another issue is the matter of creating a business assessment. The agencies have rightly referred to the Mullarkey report as being of interest. One of the recommendations of the report is that a risk assessment must be conducted for a change of this nature. Have the chief executives of the agencies completed their risk assessments and will this committee be able to see them? I know the agencies are raising issues of general concern here but it is only when we see specific details that we can understand the situation, for example, what will happen to Ordnance Survey and if there is a risk to mapping, how this is being addressed? Have the risk assessments been completed and will we see them?

Mr. Puirséil

That is a matter for the individual agencies. We are not in a position to give a risk assessment for Ordnance Survey. My understanding is that at different levels of depth each of the agencies has conducted, or is in the process of conducting, risk assessment for business continuation in the new location. These are part of their implementation plans.

Will these documents be available to the committee as a general policy?

Mr. Puirséil

That is a matter for the individual agencies.

Dr. Barrington

They are being prepared for the boards of the agencies, submitted to each of the parent Departments and then in turn to the central group. Therefore, there is a certain availability with them.

I know that technically under the Mullarkey proposal that if the Minister does not act on the risk reports, he is obliged to notify the Comptroller and Auditor General of the decision not to heed them. In trying to get a handle on how the plan will work and to ensure we have successful decentralisation, this committee would be interested in seeing the risk assessments at an early date. Is the agency in a position to tell us now whether we can see them?

Ms Lunny

As part of our implementation plans we were asked to do a risk assessment in terms of each of the headings — the business, the premises and the people — and then to examine mitigating strategies. There was a short timeframe for that and many agencies sent in a preliminary plan initially and they are now doing more work in terms of finalising their assessment of the risks and strategies.

Have risk assessment plans already been sent in by agencies?

Ms Lunny

Yes, all agencies were given a date by which to send in plans. I cannot remember the date but it was quite early — the end of May — by which they were asked to provide an implementation plan. We were given guidance as to how to set out that plan in terms of the three areas mentioned and of examining the risks and mitigating strategies.

Mr. Ó Foghlú

In the second implementation report published at the end of July we have been asked to develop our implementation plans further, to bring them through our partnership structures and to examine the risks in more detail internally. We are in the process of doing that.

Will the delegation comment on the central issue? From the point of view of specialist agencies, how viable is this programme? I know the delegation does not want to transgress and comment on Government policy. However, if chief executives are presented with a situation where, as we are told, 2% of staff have said they want to move, what sort of a timeframe is needed to achieve a move that retains capacity to deliver in all of the crucial agencies? The list here shows that while there are over 2,000 staff, only 46 of that number have agreed to move. In the case of seven agencies out of the 19 or so that exist, not a single staff member has offered to move. What sort of managerial challenges does that present to chief executives? How do they see themselves dealing with that challenge?

Allied to this is the question of what is being said to staff who, for example, might be expert mappers and do not want to move. What voluntary option does a chief executive offer to such specialised mappers? To where is it proposed to redeploy them? How will chief executives rebuild their capacity in specialist mapping or in other specialist grades if such people do not move? How will this be handled from a base of 2%?

Mr. Puirséil

In each individual agency, depending on the size and the level of specialism, it will be handled in different ways. It also depends on the suggested relocation area. We start by looking at matters, such as whether there is an option of counter commuting, e-working, tele-working etc., which would enable us to retain a certain core staff. We would not wish to shed people. However, if it is to happen we should try to keep it as low as possible. Some people will be happy to relocate and find mechanisms of their own to enable this to happen but sometimes it feels as though we might have to establish a flying column to keep the business going. Our principal concern is to keep the business going.

This seems to be a developing situation and we are keeping a close eye on formal and informal contacts, and reading the newspapers. This is and will be extremely challenging. At the same time we are absolutely certain that some areas are in the remit of Government and the Houses of the Oireachtas, and that we have to implement what is there. Implementation will not be easy. Much of the concentration of the debate is on relocating, transferring or finding positions for people who are not prepared to move. Our concentration is on the business plans and the missions of the agencies and getting that work done. That is one of the reasons we would prefer to be at the table, as we believe we have a distinctive point of view.

Every member of this committee wants to see decentralisation work. However, we are worried that some things just will not work. While it is proposed to move 200 people in Bus Éireann, only 90 are employed in the grades that could potentially move. Presumably from a chief executive's point of view when a risk assessment is carried out it is clear that some of these proposals simply will not work. Senator O'Toole mentioned the probation office where of 99 applicants none was a probation officer, which poses real difficulties.

It is crucial that we do not push down a road for political reasons because the Government has made the decision, without adequately informing Government of serious issues that could go wrong. Through what system will the chief executives alert us, the Government or whoever is key that this could go seriously wrong and that the impact on such a specialist agency has not been envisaged? Are the chief executives beginning to see this or is the general view of their association that all of this could happen but will require considerable struggle?

Mr. Puirséil

The engagement for each agency would be with the parent Department. Our engagement as an association would be through the two meetings referred to earlier. The major engagement in terms of discussion and so on lie with the general council and with the discussions in the margins or parallel to the general council. We have no input in that area.

What options is the association offering to specialists who do not wish to move? If e-working is not viable, is the association in a position to offer them a post in the general public service? Has the association considered the legal position as to whether this represents constructive dismissal and, if so, will redundancy packages be offered to those who decide on a voluntary basis not to exercise the option?

Dr. Barrington

From the beginning of this process we drew the attention of the implementation committee to the status of the public service employees in our agencies. They were recruited by our agencies for specific jobs. Some of their contracts state they will be employed in a specific place. They have also been informed that it is a voluntary decision as to whether they relocate with their agency. Members can see that it poses a major dilemma for the chief executive of an agency.

Are chief executives not in a position to say anything to such staff? They cannot be advised of a redundancy package or other options.

Dr. Barrington

No.

How can such staff reach an informed decision on their options?

Ms Lunny

May I add to this? We must recognise that a culture of transferring has existed within the Civil Service and is very familiar to people. They know how to use it and how to apply. However, this is absolutely foreign to State agencies unless they are staffed by civil servants. This represents a big change. It can be an opportunity in many ways as small agencies often have issues about career opportunities for staff. However, it is a big cultural change that needs to be addressed.

In terms of the Deputy's questions, chief executives would need to know as quickly as possible what will be the outcomes of discussions over those who do not wish to transfer, what options they have and how we can convey those to them. The issue of morale in terms of relocation and the transfer of skills will be very important and significant for us.

I welcome the CEO representatives. Decentralisation gives rise to two prospects. First, the relocation of Departments and Government agencies and, second, the decentralisation of further power and responsibility to local government. We are only considering the former. In assessing and evaluating relocation we must consider the effect on the public service and its employees, the public servants. We must consider the effect on the host communities. We must also remember this strategy is intended to benefit our already overcrowded capital city.

These were some of the ideas floating about when the matter was first mooted in 1999. In the three year period between 1999 when the Minister first signalled the Government's intent and the budget announcement in December 2003 that 10,300 jobs would be relocated, did any consultation take place involving the Minister, the Department of Finance and the parent Departments of the agencies, or did the three years up to last December pass without any real engagement regarding what was being considered?

If any consultation took place prior to or since then on the level to which the association has alluded, was it ever suggested that an initial survey be undertaken by the association rather than opening up the door for applicants? Was it ever suggested that there be a survey within the respective agencies to establish the level of participation or uptake there might be? We have asked these questions of the Minister at previous meetings of this committee and in the Dáil. In response to the specific question I have just asked, the Minister indicated on a number of occasions — it is on the record — that discussions were ongoing between his Department and the agencies and Departments which will be affected. Can the association elaborate on what the discussions amounted to? The Minister has put it on the record that the discussions were ongoing. That was the response he trundled out to our repeated questions in that regard.

We are mindful that members and staff of the agencies and Departments represented by the Association of Chief Executives of State Agencies have real concerns about career prospects, quality of life issues, etc. They are concerned about how relocation will affect their families, not just individual employees, and they are concerned about promotional opportunities. It has been suggested that the scheme is voluntary, but I do not doubt that there are concerns about the possible implication that the promotional opportunities of those who do not volunteer might be disturbed or thwarted in some way. Does the association have evidence of such concern in its respective agencies? Have such views been reflected to the association by its staff? Can our witnesses elaborate in that regard?

I wish to conclude by asking Ms Lunny a question. As both of us are from the Cavan-Monaghan region, she may know what I am going to ask. It was signalled that Comhairle was to be relocated to County Monaghan where it would have been very welcome. When representatives of the Combat Poverty Agency attended a meeting of the committee, they signalled in response to questions from myself and other members that it was perceived that there were difficulties in respect of the proposal to relocate to Monaghan town. It was signalled that Comhairle would be moved to Carrickmacross, but the Minister has acknowledged in recent weeks that Comhairle's move to Carrickmacross is not a runner.

It has been indicated that Drogheda is a possible new location for a significant arm of the Comhairle operation. Can I suggest that the Minister's responses to questions asked by the local media and Comhairle spokespersons suggested that Drogheda is preferable to Carrickmacross because it may not entail the relocation of staff? The relocation of Comhairle to Drogheda may not involve the relocation of staff because they will have a clear run every morning on the new M1 route from the Dublin Port tunnel to Drogheda. Staff members of Comhairle will face in a different direction in the morning before returning to their existing domiciles in the evening. If that is an element in the reassessment of Carrickmacross as a location, I have to say it will not be a meaningful relocation at all. It will simply mean that people will travel in a new direction when going to work in the morning before returning to where they are already located.

It is proposed that 53 named major towns throughout the State will enjoy an influx of public servants and all that entails. It is clear that communities expected that they would benefit from new energy, economic activity and more people to sustain existing services. If the Comhairle model is replicated, the 10,300 decentralised jobs will gobbled up by towns in a semi-circle around Dublin. People will be able to commute back and forth to their current domiciles. In such circumstances, the entire exercise will be an absolute travesty. I would like to know Comhairle's position on this matter. Can it suggest any way in which the relocation of its office to Drogheda can be said to meet any of the real or serious criteria of decentralisation? I suggest that it does not meet such criteria.

I emphasise that Carrickmacross is a fine town. The people of County Monaghan would welcome every Comhairle worker. I hope Comhairle will reconsider this matter.

Dr. Barrington

I think I am on reasonably firm ground in saying there was no formal consultation with agencies about the decentralisation programme before it was announced. There was an issue relating to the establishment of any new agency. It was fairly clear that a new agency could be located outside Dublin. Chief executive officers are aware that staff are weighing up issues such as promotional opportunities. It is not for us to represent staff at this forum as they can make their views known through their representative associations.

I emphasise that our main concern is to be able to continue to carry out the statutory functions for which we are responsible. We will have enormous difficulty in doing that if staff do not relocate with their agencies for whatever reason. My colleague, Ms Lunny, is not here today to represent Comhairle, but I am sure she would like to speak about this matter.

Ms Lunny

I wish to emphasise that I am not here on behalf of Comhairle or its board. Three issues were mentioned by the Minister and were conveyed to the chairman of the board. The first issue was numbers. We did not have the required numbers. Additional staff were required from the Department of Social and Family Affairs to make up the 85 posts that were to go to Carrickmacross. The second issue was e-Government. Some of the information technology agencies which were moving to Drogheda were part of the e-Government initiative on citizens' information and the Oasis project.

The third issue, which was quite significant, related to the new Comhairle (amendment) Bill, which is to be published with the disability Bill. Under the legislation, it is proposed that responsibility for a personal advocacy service for people with disabilities will be given to Comhairle. There were concerns about public transport because it is important that people with disabilities seeking to avail of such a service should be able to access it using public transport. The mainline station in Drogheda was considered as part of the accessibility issue.

I would like to ask about Dr. Barrington's initial responses to the idea of an initial survey. Was it proposed that an initial survey be carried out by each of the agencies and Departments involved in the association of the CEOs of the State agencies at the outset or even as late as last December? It is clear that no such proposal was made in the period between 1999 and 2003. Has such a proposal been made since then?

I would like to speak about Ms Lunny's response. It would have been a much finer decision if Comhairle had opted for Carrickmacross. It would have helped us by aiding and abetting the project of ensuring that there is a properly funded and resourced public transport system in all parts of the country. That such options were not available to people there was certainly not our error. The provision of such facilities is something to which people aspire and we need support to achieve it. The decision was regrettable, particularly following the Combat Poverty Agency's indication that it will not be able to relocate to Monaghan. It sent out a negative signal to the county and in respect of the overall proposition. I was sorry to learn of the decision.

Mr. Ó Foghlú

I wish to add to the Chairman's response on the discussions. A number of new agencies have been established over the past five years, or the names or roles of existing agencies have changed. Everybody was aware of the general public sector policy on location. The general approach in legislation is that an agency cannot simply decide where it is to be located. The Government must first decide which means that in our case the Department of Education and Science must decide the general area. The Department decided we were to be located in Dublin and we had to find a location and agree to take out the interest in the medium term lease in that location. We worked through that process. While we might not have been involved in detailed discussions on decentralisation, any lease arrangement taken out required the approval of the Minister for Education and Science.

Mr. Puirséil

In the case of my agency, which comes under the same Act, the same thing applied. There were discussions with the Department about location and the Minister made a statement in the Dáil that the agency would be located in Dublin.

While it is possible to relocate civil servants and even Departments, I wonder about the difficulty of relocating State agencies, especially given the specialised approach of many. If I were the Minister for Health and Children and decided to move the neurosurgery unit in Beaumont Hospital to Caherciveen I would have a very obvious cost straight away in that I would have to build a new hospital. There would also be the difficulty of getting specialist neurosurgeons and intensive care nurses to move to Caherciveen. If they decided they did not want to go, recruiting neurosurgeons and specialist nurses in Caherciveen would be very difficult. Cost and infrastructural problems can sometimes be overcome. Broadband is a difficult issue and there are parts of this city three miles north where it is not available.

We are discussing 2,000 people with very specialised knowledge. The key question is how long it takes to train people. Are we talking about three years, five years or seven years? What period of experience or specialisation do these people require and how easy is it to pick and train locally someone else from the location to which this agency may be relocated?

I realise that witnesses are constrained in some of the things they can say here, but I wish to ask some questions. Of the 60 members of the association, how many CEOs have voiced the opinion that it is simply impossible to move their agencies if they are to fulfil their remit? In the last paragraph of the submission, there is a reference to national statutory remit and the different organisations which have to be met with. Has any CEO looked at the location of his or her agency and the specialisation of his or her staff and said it is impossible to move? I am not referring to the difficulties which might be encountered in relocating civil servants as many of them can be overcome though the timeframe might be somewhat silly.

Can the committee be provided with an idea of the specialisations involved as we do not often understand exactly what we are talking about here? Using the example of the specialisation of neurosurgeons and intensive care nurses can provide a useful picture of what it is we are talking about.

Dr. Barrington

Nothing is impossible. We face other challenges in our jobs and find ways around them. On the whole, we like to think that we do as professional a job as we can. However, through the association we voiced our concerns about aspects of the implementation programme which seemed to us not to have been given sufficient attention in the initial announcement. Subsequently, we continue to maintain that the implementation committee has not yet addressed some of these issues in the document before us to help us to move forward on the task that lies ahead.

Mr. Puirséil

I agree with Dr. Barrington that nothing is impossible. If we get a job, we have to do it as best we can. The point raised by Deputy Twomey is very relevant however. We are concerned with the type of situation in which one is told the neurosurgery department at Beaumont is to move and is then told that it cannot be provided with a neurosurgeon though an obstetrician is available and an Assistant Secretary from the Department of Social and Family Affairs can be provided. The form of relocation which seems to be under discussion within the public service does not meet specialist requirements. One cannot say that specialist areas cover all of the positions listed. Clearly, there are areas in which one can move people such as administration. I hesitate to give particular examples as the people in my agency will read my comments and consider that I am sending them off to some place or other.

While there are clearly areas in which one can relocate people from one agency to another, it is not simply a matter of particular specialisms. There are balances one requires in an agency. Some of the agencies in question are quite small and some are of medium size. In the case of most, staff numbers are under 100 and well under that figure in many. There are balances required in terms of specialities and particular skills. One could lose somebody in one area and get an absolute expert in some other area that one did not need. That is where we maintain it is critical the boards of the agencies through their chief executives are able to recruit the staff they need to fulfil their functions.

This is why we are saying the broad macro policy is something on which we will have our own private views, which we might sometimes feel free to express in a social setting. While the notion of decentralisation and the movement of economic activity from Dublin are areas on which our views are private, the implementation process requires that we have the staff needed to fulfil the missions and business plans of the agencies. That is what we are having difficulty with and sometimes we feel a little bit out in the cold where relocation issues are being discussed.

It is fair enough that the witnesses cannot make a statement here today. Has the association informed the decentralisation implementation group of all the specialisations which could run into problems, some of which have been alluded to but cannot be mentioned?

Mr. Puirséil

We have not discussed it and gone into precise detail with Phil Flynn's implementation group, to which we have made a submission as an association. In our engagement with parent Departments, these are the matters that come up. The situation has been a developing one. Certain details such as location and premises must be decided before one gets into the business of looking at what staffing one is likely to have. The figures so far have been quite low. We will see what will be the figures coming out of the second central applications facility round and we look forward to the further deliberations of this committee and others.

I thank the delegation for their presentation. It has been very interesting and confirms that the association knew even less about the matter than did the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, when it was announced. Is that a fair assessment? It was mentioned that the association had meetings with the Department of Finance. Did the Department discuss at those meetings why certain agencies were being selected and the reasons certain locations were being identified?

Mr. Ó Foghlú

No, discussions with the Department of Finance have concerned implementation.

I want to establish something simple. I have been told what the Department did but I also want to know what it did not do. Did it discuss with the association the different agencies and the pros and cons of selecting them for transfer?

Mr. Ó Foghlú

No.

Did it discuss with the association the reasons the agencies and their destinations were chosen? It is important we establish this point.

Deputy Finneran should note that I live 15 miles from this building, yet I have been told I will not get broadband connectivity other than through wireless. It is not a simple matter.

The Senator should move to County Roscommon.

I may well do so.

He has visited us on a number of occasions.

I spend much time on the River Shannon.

I raise a point Ms Lunny made earlier when specific contracts were mentioned. People are appointed to a job under certain terms of contract. Under current legislation moving the location of a job may be a stated case for constructive dismissal. In terms of risk assessment, it is vital that a quantifiable figure is produced in this respect. In their submissions to the implementation body, have the agencies made an assessment of how much it might cost to buy out contracts or deal with the cost of paying for unfair dismissal cases?

Mr. Puirséil

They probably did not do so. It needs to be borne in mind that each of the agencies has a full agenda in terms of doing its own work.

The meeting has been arranged to allow members of the committee to inform themselves and examine the specific issues arising from the decentralisation plans. A Minister will come before us next month and we will put to him all the issues we have drawn from the delegation. The issue I have raised is crucial because it concerns costs amounting to tens of millions of euro. While I am not blaming the delegation, as far as it is concerned, it has not been discussed, which is important.

The decentralisation programme was announced in January this year with a three year timescale. In other words, it must be concluded by Christmas 2006. The presentation sets out what the association regards as the requirements which must be met for the decentralisation programme to work. If all the requirements were met, could the 11 agencies move lock, stock and barrel in the three year period?

Dr. Barrington

With regard to the Senator's final point, it is important to remember that we, as CEOs, do not know who has applied for relocation. Given that the CAF is confidential, it is too soon to know the impact of people's applications at individual agency level.

I agree, which is the point of my question. The chief executive officers will, however, have that information at some point. Let us assume the boards and State agencies learn how many staff will move, retain the right to select and appoint, which is, in most cases, governed by the Legislature and, as such, cannot be interfered with, a retraining or mentoring system is introduced and all the other requirements are met. If this was to occur in the coming months, the State agencies would have all of 2005 and 2006 to complete the decentralisation process. Would that be sufficient to achieve agreement on location and have all the necessary infrastructure, for example, connectivity, in place? Would that be possible in the specified timeframe?

Dr. Barrington

On the assumption that the core staff in our agencies are prepared to relocate, that could be achieved.

One cannot make that assumption.

Dr. Barrington

The core consideration for us is our staff and their specialist skills as well as what their individual decisions will mean for our organisations.

Yes, if the experts — the specialists and technical staff — decide not to move, the State agencies will have a problem which could not be resolved in the period in question.

Dr. Barrington

The issue of where those who do not wish to relocate go remains to be resolved because they are specialist staff, some of whom have contracts of employment with particular organisations. This matter needs to be examined. The question then arises as to whether we will retain the right to recruit people with the necessary specialist skills to replace such people. We argue that in order to carry out the mandate we have been given, we must retain the right to recruit from the market. Staff in other areas of the public service who have the appropriate skills and wish to redeploy could do so but we need to retain the authority to recruit for the particular posts we are filling.

Is it possible to persuade neurosurgeons to move to Cahirciveen? We are trying to be practical and are asking whether decentralisation can work. I have a difficulty in that the Opposition and the Government are playing a ball game, while members of the Independent group are trying to find a central line in all this but are having great difficulty coming to terms with it. From the delegation's comments, I understand that decentralisation cannot be achieved in the specified period.

Mr. Puirséil

That is a judgment based on what we have said.

Yes, I accept it is my judgment of what has been said.

Mr. Ó Foghlú

We are depending on the outcome of the discussions between the trade unions and the Department of Finance, in which we are seeking to engage on behalf of the management of State agencies. We cannot control the timescale of this outcome but it is a key timing issue. Arising from that, we can implement and try to bring as many of our people with us.

A second set of issues arises around accommodation which has not been addressed here. In general, these issues are also beyond our control. Most of the premises will be new builds, which raises a further set of issues as regards construction and availability.

I am aware of that which is the reason I am trying to allow a period to address every issue. I have allowed one month for each of the issues raised by Mr. Puirséil and Mr. Ó Foghlú. It appears that some of the decentralisation proposals will be impossible to carry out, while others will not be possible within an established three year timescale. I do not believe it can be done in three years. Having stated that nothing is impossible, Mr. Ó Foghlú is not as clear and appears to believe it may be possible. Having listened to the anecdote about replacing a neurosurgeon with an Assistant Secretary to move a neurosurgery department to Cahirciveen, I do not see how the process will work.

Mr. Puirséil

To avoid doubt, it would probably also be impossible to replace an Assistant Secretary with a neurosurgeon.

The joint committee has learned a great deal and I compliment the delegation on being non-judgmental and noncommittal on Government policy, as we all try to be at all times. The presentation has shown that the decentralisation programme as envisaged is an impossible task.

I must declare an interest as I have recently concluded my draft Masters dissertation for the Institute of Public Administration on decentralisation. No ex ante individualised report was done on each of the decentralisation proposals although a post ante report, of which I am sure the delegation will be aware, was done on the previous decentralisation programme by the then Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. McDonnell. The report was generally glowing in its appraisal of an effective decentralisation programme. Notwithstanding, many of the fears expressed at that time were similar to some of the fears expressed today. Even in Mr. Puirséil’s conversation this morning he probably answered many of the questions that have been raised, including teleworking, which is now accepted across the board as being feasible.

Being realistic and practical, I must remember all the times that people in this House, who now seem to believe decentralisation cannot be done, were calling for it. Having looked at the results from the previous debates, I could name them individually. It is amazing how people can turn around when it suits them.

We never said it could not be done. It can be done but we are saying some parts of it cannot be done and that there are many difficulties with other parts. We would like to know about them. That is all we are asking.

It is important that the Senator knows the committee decided earlier that from now on we would tick off on a monthly basis what has been achieved in terms of decentralisation, just to prove the doubters wrong.

Mr. Puirséil

I was asked a question by Senator Hanafin. I said nothing is impossible. Government policy is for the Government, control of the Government is for the people in the two Houses and our job is to implement policy. The previous instances of decentralisation, which were dealt with in the 1992 report of the then Comptroller and Auditor General, Laurie McDonnell, concerned civil servants. The transfer of civil servants is a rather different issue from the transfer of public servants, who have specific contacts. Furthermore, the report referred to a number of problems in certain areas. They related to the short term some people spent in the locations to which they were decentralised.

In responding to Senator Hanafin I am probably teaching grandmother how to suck eggs if he has just completed a Masters in the area and I have not, but I recall that a quite significant number of people returned to Dublin or returned on promotion. Losses of productivity in the areas that benefited from decentralisation may have happened in the pre-1992 era but probably would not happen now. They probably related to lifestyle and culture questions but I do not believe it would be fair to say that the Comptroller and Auditor General's report of 1992 was 100% without problem. Otherwise there would not be the makings of a thesis in it. I presume the final chapter states that there is room for more study in this area, as do all Masters theses.

We will conclude this section of our meeting. On behalf of the committee, I thank the representatives of the Association of Chief Executives of State Agencies for a very useful discussion today. The committee will revisit decentralisation at our next meeting. Mr. Phil Flynn, a representative of the CAF, will be in attendance on 28 September. We will be continuing our examination of this area.

We will suspend until 12.30 p.m. and conclude our last session before lunch. The last topic, as everyone knows, is a presentation from Dóchas and the Debt and Development Coalition.

Sitting suspended at 12.15 p.m. and resumed at 12.35 p.m.
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