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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Sep 2005

Tax Reliefs and Exemptions: Presentation.

Before we proceed to the presentation by the Irish Taxation Institute, members will be aware that the Arts Council was scheduled to make a submission this morning on artists' tax relief. Unfortunately, due to the untimely death of Mr. Jerome Hynes whose funeral is being held this morning, we must reschedule the meeting. On behalf of the joint committee, I extend sympathy to the Hynes family, the Wexford Opera Festival and the members of the Arts Council who worked with him. Representatives of the Arts Council will come before the committee at a future suitable date.

At the last meeting we discussed how to deal with the submissions made by different individuals. It is up to the committee to decide how much work it should do on this as over 80 submissions have been received. I suggested that we have a couple of meetings to get a balanced, cross-sectional view. We were to start today with the Irish Taxation Institute and the Arts Council. In the next couple of weeks — we will draw up a format to ensure the meetings are conducted swiftly — we will meet groups which support the exemptions and those which prefer a different approach.

I suggest that we invite the Construction Industry Federation and IBEC which support the exemptions, as well as the Irish Congress of Trade Unions which has made a detailed submission. We should then invite groups not directly involved but which have a vested interest and a certain point of view in this area such as the Combat Poverty Agency, Seán Healy of CORI and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. Those three organisations have made good submissions and represent a good balance from society.

I do not suggest going any further as that would involve too much work. I anticipate this taking a couple of meetings during the month of October. It would give us a good, cross-sectional view on this issue and we should be able to compile a report well in advance of the budget. Obviously, we will reschedule the meeting with the Arts Council as soon as possible.

As we are given the full presentations in advance, we should advise the people presenting them that we wish to hear the arguments for their position rather than a restatement of everything in the submission. We already have the documentation. An insight into why people take a particular position should be the focus rather than a long regurgitation of the material we already have.

All members agree on that. We have a clearly indexed schedule of the submissions and most of us will have examined those in which we have an interest in advance of the meeting.

I am also concerned about the decision making process being adopted by the Minister. It is clear from the signals he has given that he intends to wind down in some areas. Also, there is a massive promotion and a massive change of policy to base medical and health services, for example, on private investors who are tax led. It is critical that there be an examination of this. As our visitors this morning are tax experts, they sell tax schemes. That is fair enough. It is their business. However, we are the politicians and we must have oversight not just into the benefit to the tax industry of the tax schemes but also how good or bad the system is for the citizen.

There are three major areas where it is clear from the submissions that the tax schemes are to be a major part of Government policy. A number of investors are queuing up to invest in medical facilities which attract tax breaks, an issue on which there has been no debate. For example, the Hanly report states hospital units with fewer than 200 to 300 beds, depending on whether they have an accident and emergency department, are not viable and should be closed. Members of the committee are aware of the pain that caused in different communities. However, when it comes to the tax schemes for private hospitals, for which investors are queuing up and which the Irish Taxation Institute is actively selling, no consideration is given to Government policy in terms of the type of medical health service principles that should apply.

As Deputy Bruton said, it is important that we focus on the broad public implications of the schemes rather than on their selling points. We have all received letters from the Minister for Education and Science asking that the tax breaks for student accommodation continue. We have also received letters from a number of third level institutions such as the Dublin Institute of Technology regarding the Grangegorman site. It would be useful if the committee were to discuss the public implications of such tax breaks following which we would be in a position to reach a decision or a viewpoint on whether they are good, bad or indifferent in terms of their overall impact. I am interested in having such a debate.

I hope the delegation from the Irish Taxation Institute will this morning indicate what research has been undertaken on the broader implications of the tax schemes, otherwise we will simply be hearing from promoters of the schemes.

How does the Deputy propose the committee progress on this? Is she suggesting we invite officials from the health policy section of the Department of Health and Children before the committee?

We could invite a number of health experts from both sides to discuss whether we wish to continue with the tax break model of investment in health care and capital facilities and how that relates to the Hanly report. I could identify to the Chairman a number of people who might be prepared to contribute. I am sure those heavily promoting medical investment tax breaks, such as the delegation before us today, would also wish to attend. We are speaking of many billions of euros in tax incentives and the giving of public hospital lands to private development with significant implications for the public purse in terms of tax expenditure. While we are all aware the facilities will be world class in terms of the furnishings of the hotels attached to them we do not yet know what are the implications for medical services in general. For example, will all the private hospitals be located near cities? What will happen to those living in remote regions? Will the public system cater for the elderly only as happened in Louisiana? Will only the elderly, poor and very sick be left in the public system? We want to discuss the broad social implications of the tax policy.

I had suggested we invite representatives from the Combat Poverty Agency, CORI and so on who I am sure would come at this issue from a broader societal perspective rather than a vested interest base.

Deputy Burton has raised an important issue. A wide range of tax reliefs is available, some of which are incentives to commercial sectors be they studs, industry or hotels. There is also a well established method of examining whether a subsidy is justified in a commercial business. However, another large block is effectively engaged in the delivery of public services through private tax driven models such as hospitals, private nursing homes, multi-storey car parks and park and ride facilities.

We need to see a presentation of the argument by those within the public service who advocate this line. We should, for example, have someone from the Department of Health and Children explain the role of privately funded nursing homes and hospitals in the overall delivery of public services. We should also have a presentation on transport, also prominent, although health and education are the main areas involved. It would be useful for the committee to hear from the policymakers within the health sector on how they have reached the conclusion that the tax driven model, which has all the disadvantages such as the grounds on which people gain access and whether it should be based on ability to pay or need, is best. On the other hand, it obviously shortens waiting times for surgical treatments, etc. We need to see how public policymakers have weighed the disadvantages of this model against its advantages and why this committee should be happy to see taxpayer's money being used in the way it is.

The missing ingredient from this debate is that the introduction of tax reliefs, apparently, has largely been on the whim of a Minister, or perhaps two, deciding that it would be a good idea to provide relief which is then granted, but no body of analysis is ever provided by the sponsoring Department showing the proposed benefits and costs where we can clearly see the benefits outweigh the costs. If we are to have a rounded debate, we need such an analysis. We should hear not just from CORI or the lobbyists from the different sides. Public policymakers who say this is the right way to go should set out their stall in order that we can cross-examine them.

Should we invite the Secretaries General of the Departments of Health and Children and Education and Science and the respective officials from the Department of Finance who deal with them to talk to the committee?

Certainly, the Secretary General of the Department of Health and Children and whichever officials they want to bring with them.

We will do that.

We need to see the public policy case being made. As Deputy Burton said, we hear from the two sides to the argument, but we need to see how the policymakers come to their position.

The Deputy is well aware that some of the issues have been well ventilated at several committees, for example, the €13 million of taxpayer's money spent on the car park in Beaumont Hospital. Many might——

With due respect, that is not the best example. The Minister for Health and Children seems to have made a dramatic decision to shift the focus of capital expenditure in the health service to this new type of private hospital which benefits from tax breaks. For as long as we can remember, we have had a public and private hospital system and until now, with the exception of one or two, most of our private hospitals were not-for-profit voluntary hospitals. Although privately owned and managed, they had a strong public link and ethos.

Judging from the Minister's statements during the summer, she has made two important decisions. First, she has indicated she will give publicly owned land to establish private hospitals on public hospital campuses. Second, she has made the decision to say it is open season for investors who wish to invest — investors rather than not-for-profit voluntary hospitals. I have worked in many voluntary hospitals and although they are privately run and managed and many make good money, their ethos is based on service.

We are witnessing a major shift in policy that has a significant link with tax breaks. On several occasions I have asked the Minister for Finance what interaction there is between his Department and the Department of Health and Children, with regard to the Hanly report, the most recent comprehensive statement on the health service. Many of the issues raised in the report were contentious, particularly for those local areas that looked like losing services. However, there was much that was not contentious.

We know the history of the hospital tax break. A general practitioner in the constituency of the then Minister for Finance, Mr. McCreevy, suggested to him that it would be a good idea.

I am pleased Deputy Bruton raised the question of the nursing homes. The traditional nursing home sector involves people from the medical services area such as nurses and so on who set up family based nursing homes. In recent years there has been a plethora of investor-led nursing homes and one can see the strain. Many religious orders and church bodies are involved in nursing homes and there is not necessarily as aggressive a profit motive involved as there is in the case of the multinational, global health service and care providers who are very drawn by tax breaks. Is there any communication between the Department of Finance and the Department of Health and Children and the Minister of State with responsibility for older people about the implications for costs and the wider social implications? The tax policy is hugely successful in drawing out money but it is not known how successful it is otherwise.

The Deputy's point is well made but I wish to move on.

I will be brief. The subject being discussed is well worthy of examination. The essential point in discussion of tax breaks and especially construction related tax breaks is they are meant to be for a certain period of time in order that they have an impact and are not indefinite.

A reference was made to student accommodation. I was a member of the tax strategy group when that scheme was discussed. It was introduced in 1998 or 1999 and has been very successful. This does not mean to say, however, that it should necessarily last indefinitely. The same is true of the seaside resort scheme, which is already being phased out. These schemes are very expensive. There is a certain pragmatic case to be made for providing an incentive for people to invest here rather than in Singapore and Abu Dhabi and such places. However, it must be in places where it is needed, where it will make a difference and provide added value.

I will conclude this discussion. The committee will invite the Secretaries General of the Departments of Health and Children and Education and Science to discuss the matter as they are the two most obvious Departments.

The two schemes under the aegis of Department of Education and Science are being terminated on 31 July but they may not be terminated on that date. However, the Department of Health and Children should definitely be invited to attend.

I do not have the full list of submissions from the Minister for Health and Children but I read it. She has specifically suggested that the scheme be extended. The implication from other submissions was that it applied to a few campuses. I remember that it applied to Grangegorman DIT because I used to work there.

The Deputy will recall that on Committee Stage of the Finance Bill last year it emerged that a tax break costing almost €40 million for one building——

In Waterford.

Yes. The policy issue is if the Department of Education and Science had €40 million of taxpayer's money to spend on a third level institution whether it would have chosen that particular project. I presume this is the question being posed by the Deputy.

There were three or four examples in the Finance Bill which were specifically connected with education, not just student accommodation. We are agreed at this stage.

I welcome our guests who are representing the Irish Taxation Institute, Mr. Philip Brennan, president; Ms Cora Murray, director; Mr. Adrian Sherlock, director, and Mr. Mark Redmond, chief executive. I thank the delegation for attending today's meeting of the committee. Before the discussion commences, I remind visitors that comments made by members are protected by parliamentary privilege but those of visitors are not. Does the committee have the agreement of the delegation to publish its presentation?

Mr. Philip Brennan

Yes.

Perhaps the delegates will appreciate the general discussion the committee has had and understand from where it is coming. It is trying to adopt a broad based approach to this matter. Members decided to invite representatives of the Irish Taxation Institute to address the committee at this early stage of proceedings because it has a clear position on the matter. The committee has discussed this issue with officials from the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners in recent weeks and proposes to hold further hearings on the matter. Members are familiar with the institute's submission. I invite Mr. Brennan to commence its presentation.

Mr. Brennan

I thank the Chairman and hope my colleagues and I can be of assistance to the joint committee. I propose to make a brief opening statement before asking Mr. Redmond to make a presentation. All of the representatives of the Irish Taxation Institute will then be happy to answer any questions the Chairman or other members of the committee may have.

On behalf of the Irish Taxation Institute, I thank the joint committee for its invitation to attend this meeting. The institute's officials welcome the opportunity to give the committee an overview of the institute's perspective on tax reliefs and exemptions, as well as their operational impact on the economy. We intend to highlight some of the issues raised in our submission to the Minister for Finance and outline the context in which the recommendations were made. I am conscious that the public debate on this issue has evolved since the institute made its submission to the Minister last April. I also intend to outline the institute's perspective on the issues which have arisen since. I am joined by the chief executive of the institute, Mr. Mark Redmond; by its research director, Ms Cora Murray, who was involved in the preparation of its submission; and by its technical director, Mr. Adrian Sherlock.

The Irish Taxation Institute warmly welcomes the process of public consultation that has accompanied the review of tax exemptions and reliefs. As a consequence of the practical experience of its members, the institute has an important role to play in outlining its views on taxation policy and administration. As the members of the joint committee may be aware, the institute is a not-for-profit professional body. It educates, informs, represents and sets standards for tax advisers in Ireland. It is the examining and professional standards body for the tax profession. It has over 5,000 members who work in professional service firms, private industry and the State sector. One of the institute's core objectives is to provide rigorous training and examination on the administration of taxation in Ireland. It is this country's leading provider of information on taxation matters, through its seminar and publications programme. Its key function is to create a deeper understanding of how the tax system works. It believes such a deeper understanding will lead to higher levels of tax compliance. Spokespersons from the Revenue Commissioners have consistently noted the key role the institute and its members play in ensuring Ireland's tax system works. Tax compliance is our business.

The Irish Taxation Institute fully supports the Government's decision to conduct a thorough review of tax reliefs and exemptions. It considers the review should be a rolling process. It notes that one of the key objectives of the review, as set out by the Minister, is "to ensure the right balance is achieved between the benefit to the investor and the good of the community" when providing for tax incentives. The institute fully supports this objective. Tax incentives must not be seen as an end in themselves. They must be driven by the socio-economic needs of the country. As the institute clearly stated in its submission to the Minister, the key issue to be considered when determining the success or otherwise of tax incentives is whether they have delivered the desired socio-economic objectives. In that context, I do not seek to ignore another stated aim of the Minister in launching this review process, which is "to improve the equity of the tax system". It will become clear in the course of the institute's presentation, however, that certain tax incentives such as property based incentives are, by definition, typically a viable option for high income earners only. The representatives of the institute will explain that the institute does not believe this phenomenon necessarily results in an inequitable tax system. Most tax reliefs and exemptions, both in terms of number and cost to the Exchequer, are available to and availed of by all taxpayers.

In the course of this presentation we will discuss the perception that there is widespread abuse of tax incentives by high income earners to eliminate their tax liabilities. The Irish Taxation Institute does not believe this to be the case. It considers some of the legislation governing tax incentives is too complex and that such complexity has hindered the effective use of incentives. I remind the joint committee that the institute has consistently argued for more time to be given for Oireachtas scrutiny of proposed fiscal legislation, particularly on Committee Stage. I hope the committee finds our presentation beneficial to its deliberations. We believe we can also be of help to the committee when the recommendations of the consultant appointed by the Minister as part of the review process are published and if consequent draft legislation is published in the Finance Bill. With your permission, Chairman, we will make a brief presentation following which we will be happy to answer any questions members have arising from the topic.

Mr. Mark Redmond

In this short presentation I will take the committee through the role tax incentives have played in taxation policy. In seeking a measured approach to tax incentives the institute will discuss with the committee issues of cost-benefit analysis, the availability of incentives to taxpayers and the appropriate use of tax incentives. We wish to touch very briefly on tax exemptions before concluding with a look at the future.

Everyone will agree that tax incentives have been a major component of economic policy in recent decades and led to significant growth in the economy. This is particularly true of our corporate rate tax strategy which has placed us at the top of the foreign direct investment list and which is now being emulated by other countries. Attracting foreign direct investment is, therefore, becoming that bit more competitive. We agree completely with Deputy Burton's comments on the need to consider socio-economic matters before considering tax. Our strategy in Ireland has always been to identify socio-economic needs before considering whether the tax policy can help. For example, the primacy of the family home is underpinned by exemptions on the sale and purchase of such properties while the importance of the family is underpinned by the exempting of children's benefit from income tax.

The need for health care is underpinned by tax relief on medical expenses and the desirability of saving is underpinned by the special savings investment accounts. Deputy Burton referred to private medical facilities. One of the key points in our submission refers to the need to introduce a certification process underpinned by all Departments. We suggest, for example, that on foot of a proposal to provide a medical facility in a particular part of the country, the Department of Health and Children should certify whether it is required before we consider tax incentives.

The Irish Taxation Institute does not consider tax incentives are provided to protect the wealthy. We would take a very poor view of any professional marketing tax schemes simply for the sake of selling them. The key purpose of incentives is not to reduce bills for the rich but to deliver on identified socio-economic objectives. We all want to ensure, therefore, that there are appropriate checks and balances in the system, which is why we have suggested the introduction of certification across all tax incentives. There should be continuous rather than once-off reviews of tax incentives. As Senator Mansergh said, property incentives have, by definition, a shelf life and it is important the Oireachtas is aware of what constitutes that shelf life. As a number of committee members have said, we face socio-economic needs today which we did not face ten or 20 years ago and it may be the case that our taxation policy can be used to address them.

We do not come before the committee today to suggest that everything in the garden is rosy. There are difficulties in the way the tax incentives framework operates and with certain incentives which do not work with the result that socio-economic objectives are not being met. Broadly, however, and without wishing to second guess the report of the consultants the Minister has appointed, incentives have delivered. We have four examples to discuss with the committee. We are all aware that before the IFSC area was incentivised, it was a derelict part of the heart of our capital city in which there was little or no employment. It has now put Ireland on the international map as a centre of excellence for financial services and created directly at least 14,000 high-earning jobs. Conservatively, it is estimated that the IFSC contributes at least €700 million per annum to the Exchequer in corporate tax receipts alone.

The Temple Bar area has put Ireland on the international tourism map. Members will recall that before it was incentivised, one proposal for the area was to demolish part of it to build a bus depot. Senator Mansergh mentioned third level student accommodation. It is great to see reports this week that students in most third level centres now have a reasonably plentiful supply of good quality accommodation and the rental price is decreasing. Members should contrast the current position with that which preceded the introduction of the incentive. We all remember the appalling scramble at this time of year as students desperately tried to find invariably poor quality, expensive accommodation. On a similar theme, we now have 17,000 apartments in areas around the country when previously there was none. Many of the relevant incentives were aimed at owner occupiers.

When the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, Mr. Frank Daly, and some of his colleagues appeared before the joint committee on 10 November 2004 it emerged that the estimated cost of incentives to the Exchequer was €8.4 billion. This figure shocked everyone and raised major questions about equity. Since the story started to unfold before the joint committee on 10 November, the Irish Taxation Institute has received additional information and awaits further detail. It emerged from the evidence of Revenue that incentives or credits or allowances available to all taxpayers account for the greater part of the €8.4 billion figure. The aspect of this issue which causes controversy and on which, I suspect, this meeting will focus, is property incentives. Regardless of the fact that these incentives account for approximately 2% of the overall figure, the value for money argument remains a key issue. The Irish Taxation Institute has been consistent in pointing out that while one could argue that for every €100 invested using a tax incentive shelter €42 is immediately lost to the Exchequer, we argue that the full €100 is directly invested in the economy. In addition, if this investment is doing what it should do, it will also address an identified socio-economic need. This takes us back to Deputy Burton's point on certification.

I remind members of what the institute calls the "domino effect" of tax incentives. Hotels which we use as an example in our submission could be deleted and replaced by any of the other tax incentives. While we accept that investment in hotels by individuals creates a tax cost for the Exchequer, one should also consider the harvest the Exchequer sows from it which is a little like the yield the country sowed from the IFSC incentives to which I referred. A hotel creates employment and payroll taxes, considerable yield and spending taxes, VAT and excise in bar sales and spending by conference delegates and hotel guests and VAT on food and accommodation. The hotel's profits also fall within the tax net.

Although this is all very good, are the wealthy paying their fair share of tax? In particular, are they avoiding paying their fair share of tax through the use of incentives? The wealthy should pay their fair share of tax, make an appropriate financial contribution to the Exchequer and be seen to do so. When representatives of the Revenue Commissioners appeared before the joint committee on 10 November 2004, they outlined that 99% of top earners, that is, those earning in excess of €100,000 per annum, in the PAYE sector and 97% of those in the non-PAYE sector paid top rate tax in 2001, which is as it should be. However, if one goes behind these figures, which we have taken from Revenue's statistical report for the same year, one finds that the top 5,300 earning taxpayers in 2001, defined as those earning €200,000 or more who account for 0.3% of the individual taxpayer base, contribute 11.5% of the total income tax yield. This figure amounts to €650 million. By contrast, the 1.1 million lowest income earners contribute €630 million. Furthermore, the top 1.1% of the taxpayer base pays one fifth of the income tax yield. These figures are helpful in informing all of us of the position vis-à-vis equity.

This does not, however, answer the question as to the availability of tax incentives. We are all concerned that a golden circle may be operating in this area. Incentives available to all taxpayers account for the largest part of the figure of €8.4 billion cited by the Revenue Commissioners. The controversial issue, therefore, is the availability of tax incentive shelters. These incentives are a viable option only for higher income earners because to avail of them, by definition, one must have one's own funds or the capacity to borrow and, fundamentally, the capacity to bear the risk. That is why high income earners generally use these schemes. Conceptually, that should be acceptable to us if we start from the position that we are not here to make tax incentives available so as to give a tax break to the wealthy. We are here to identify the wealth created by the better-off and determine whether we can harness it directly to deliver on socio-economic objectives, both quantitative and qualitative.

In our submission we have commented on the appropriate use of incentives. While more needs to be done in this area, we can take comfort from the fact that, in doing more, we are starting from a good base because all the incentives have been introduced, debated and scrutinised by the Oireachtas. As our president, Mr. Philip Brennan, said, we have consistently suggested in the institute that the Oireachtas needs more time, particularly on Committee Stage, to scrutinise the detail of Finance Bills which are extraordinarily complex.

If we adopt the position that the use of the incentives the Oireachtas has provided does not mean abuse, we realise that, by definition, someone using a tax incentive is a compliant taxpayer because he or she is filing returns with the Revenue Commissioners. If he or she is a high income earner, he or she is very much in Revenue's sights because it has established a high net worth grouping focused on high income earners. As members well know, the Revenue Commissioners have extensive powers when it comes to information gathering and anti-avoidance measures. If they form a view that incentives are being abused and have no commercial reality, since 1989 they have had the ability to move to reverse the trend. Clearly, they have the ability to achieve or seek to achieve changes in the incentive legislation should they see fit.

We have a very brief comment to make on tax exemptions. We gave exemptions to taxpayers on the basis of a bargain or agreement. The agreement was that, on foot of being given an exemption, the taxpayer would deliver something back to the State. That might be qualitative feedback on our cultural or scientific fabric or it may be quantitative. As far as we are concerned, the only question on which we should be focused is whether an exemption continues to deliver on the socio-economic objective set by the Oireachtas. Sometimes the Oireachtas regards certain exemptions as loss leaders, to use an expression from the grocery trade. One should remember that we have never given carte blanche to individual or corporate taxpayers and said they should be forever exempt from paying tax; what we have done is identified types of income that should be exempt from taxation. It may be and often is the case that someone with exempt income has a raft of other types of income that create significant revenue for the Exchequer.

As has been said by most members of the committee today, this debate is about socio-economic needs. It is about qualitative and quantitative objectives for the State and shelf life. The Oireachtas no longer has an interest in incentivising construction or refurbishment in Temple Bar or the Custom House docks. We are moving towards circumstances in which we want to create high value employment. We have already discussed the issue of health care. Child care was also mentioned briefly. The Oireachtas may deem it appropriate to determine whether our taxation strategy can help deliver on these socio-economic needs.

Mr. Brennan

It remains for me to say the institute is available to the committee as required. We will be examining closely the reports of the consultants and any proposed legislative changes. That is our area of expertise. We welcome the opportunity to engage further with the committee, now or later.

I thank the delegates for their presentation.

While I have a number of questions, perhaps I should begin with a comment. The Irish Taxation Institute has stated the share of tax paid by the top percentage of earners is very large. That is a partial view of tax equity because it does not take into account the income of the earners on which that share is based. The delegates have also stated the top group of earners pay 21% of their income in tax. A person in the middle quintile of tax distribution would pay more than 11%. This presentation is partial in its presentation of tax equity.

The delegation is urging us to ignore the tax equity issue by looking at these incentives. The cost or benefit of such schemes is never presented to the Oireachtas. No Minister for Finance has ever felt the need to stand up and estimate the costs, benefits and resulting margins. Also, we never see incentives embedded in a sectoral policy. We never see the Department of Health and Children stating the crucial nature of private tax relief is to fill the gap in our health strategy and is at its core. Benefits are the key issue but there has been no attempt by the State to detail them as it develops its tax policy. This is the first time it has been seriously examined. It is naïve to state the Oireachtas has passed these incentives because it was done on the blind with some feeling it is a great idea while others are sceptical.

We were told to ignore the equity issue and only look at the social benefit. The presentation claims a number of commendable projects would not have been undertaken if we had placed personal caps on tax allowances but what evidence is there to support this? What evidence is there that the 1998 cap of €31,000 on capital allowances for passive investors caused commendable projects to fall away? People will resist caps for all sorts of reasons but if the argument is to be made, there must be evidence to back it up and I have not seen any in the submission that there is a strong case that a beneficial project will collapse if caps are put in place.

To underpin this, if we accept that €200 million is an accurate figure for the property incentives, the information from the Revenue Commissioners also showed that in 2001, €74 million of this went to 115 individuals and that the following year another €42 million went to presumably the same people. In the space of two years €116 million went to 115 individuals. That cannot be ignored. The scandal is not the €8.4 billion but that some individuals are availing of these reliefs to such an extent and in such a planned way; they are scheme hopping to ensure extremely low rates of income tax. It is legal but the issue for us is if we should continue to allow it to be so. The case has not been made that the world would fall in if we cap many of the allowances, leaving aside the issue of their being justified.

I see merit in certification but what format is necessary? The Chairman made the essential point — there might be €40 million in the Department of Education and Science which could be spent on either education programmes or given in tax relief. We want certification to show that the €40 million given by way of tax relief gives at least as good value or better. We do not want to hear some official saying it would be nice for Grangegorman to have a car park, or whatever. That is not certification.

The institute should develop the notion of certification because tax exemptions are as much euro taken from the taxpayer's pocket as are euro given directly to a programme, for example, to deal with disadvantage in Coolock or Darndale. The euro given to such a programme represents a bigger bang for our buck than the other euro. Certification of this type is needed not simply a comment on the lines that it is what may be described as "a good thing". The institute could explain how such a certification framework might be developed. It must be of a high standard.

Mr. Brennan

This process has not been an exact science. There was a broad need for the reliefs proposed a long time ago. They have worked well and Mr. Redmond presented some of the evidence for this. I agree, however, that a post-audit was lacking. This would involve going back to see where exactly the programme worked, whether it worked as intended or was at a point where it was no longer needed. That is why this review is positive and there should be a rolling review coupled with the certification process. That ensures not only the tax legislators but also those responsible for economic development have an input into the decision on whether the reliefs should continue, be enhanced or abolished. While I agree broadly with the Deputy's comment, we did not act on the blind. There was some level of review but certification will enhance the process in the future, as will rolling reviews.

We see no evidence to suggest that the cap stopped viable investments in their tracks. No incentive has a shelf life.

According to the institute's submission, ceilings should not be imposed.

Mr. Brennan

The critical first test is to determine the socio-economic need. To the extent that is decided and continuously monitored investment should be taken from wherever it is available. If some investments are available only from people who have a significant amount of money, why apologise for it? One is encouraging them to invest in a venture the State has identified as appropriate for investment.

Mr. Brennan says there is no evidence that the 1998 cap had an impact, yet he urges us not to impose caps in the future. According to the submission such a restriction would result in some cases of commendable projects not happening. The lack of evidence for this contention undermines its validity.

Mr. Brennan

Each venture should be examined to determine a suitable level of relief. In some cases that will involve a cap. Typically, a cap brings more investors into the venture overall but they may be low risk investments. It is not suitable for small investors to get involved in high risk investments. People with significant wealth may be willing to take that chance in return for a significant reward. In some cases — perhaps in many — it works out. However, there are certainly also plenty of cases where we have evidence that it has not worked out. Our main argument is that the legislation, through a process of constant review, should direct incentives to the right areas. Then one encourages as much or as little investment as is required for the area.

Ms Cora Murray

Perhaps I might add to my colleague's comments. Our position regarding the cap is not that we want uncapped incentives per se. The experience of our members on the ground has been that such high-risk projects are either entered into by people who have a great deal of private capital or require funding. The banks and finance houses have been very reluctant to give people funding unless there are——

These are properties. They are not investing in researching a chemical that might prove a flop. They are building something on which a mortgage can be raised.

Perhaps the delegates might give the committee an example of what they consider a high risk investment in the context of our discussion.

Mr. Brennan

The business expansion schemes were high risk. The proof of that is that many of them were——

Please give an example of a property based scheme which is also a high risk.

Mr. Brennan

It depends on the timing. We can examine property based schemes with the benefit of recent hindsight and say they have all done extremely well because of the development of the property market. However, I am sure that it was different for those who were investing in certain inner-city areas in the early stages. The Deputy will recall that it took quite some time for those projects to get off the ground. It was not really until they developed a critical mass that they took off. In the early stages, they were an extremely high risk, and some of them could have gone bad. As it turned out, they did not. Property investment tends to be a long-term venture, and who knows what will happen in the next ten years? Perhaps many of the gains accumulated by those investors will be whittled away.

Ms Murray

I will add a brief comment. If Deputies think back far enough to when the Temple Bar centres first came in, they will recall that we were not certain of our gains in the property market. The big institutional investors in the early days of Temple Bar were quite slow to get into the area. Many of the investors at the time were small ones who were not averse to risk. It took some two to three years before the big institutional investors became comfortable. By that time, the property market had become a surer investment. As Mr. Brennan said, it will not always be like this.

Do the delegates expect the property market will fall significantly and that although there is not currently much risk, the bubble will burst? Is that the implication of what they have been saying?

Mr. Adrian Sherlock

It was in this morning's newspapers. When I was driving in from Kildare, there was a comment on the radio from the ECB that we should be conscious of our property market and the danger of its overheating. Therefore, the soundings are coming out.

Mr. Brennan

We are not property experts. I do not know how the property market will develop. I am merely pointing out that there are points in the cycle where investors consider property to be low risk and others where they consider it high risk. It can change.

I can think of a high risk project. The town renewal scheme covered approximately 100 small towns. From my vast experience, although the incentive has been provided for perhaps five years, the majority of sites identified by the local authority have not yet been taken up. Some of the urban renewal schemes in the larger provincial towns have also not yet had sites taken up, despite five years of the Celtic tiger.

I can develop that point. We have such a plethora of property based tax investment schemes, with a gilt edged, guaranteed return, that those in what one might term poor-prospect areas are passed over. ADM has published a map of the country, showing the areas of poverty in our towns and cities, which confirms that the major council estates built in the 1970s onwards remain fields of poverty in an otherwise affluent country. The Chairman has rightly pointed to the failure of incentives to renew certain sites in towns. It is reasonable to use tax incentives to lever investment to bring on areas of deprivation and stagnation, but the question that arises from the Chairman's statement is whether the tax led investment in property was cast so wide that investors chose schemes guaranteed to work and pass on certain areas. The socio-economic argument is that tax incentives are given to do things which otherwise would not be done. I accept that is what happened in Temple Bar and the IFSC, but a plethora of incentives does not always meet this objective. Beacon Health Care has established its centre in the richest part of Ireland, the south side of Dublin. I am not sure if the areas where hospital facilities are most needed have been mapped, but the socio-economic argument is that hospitals should be built in areas where they are most needed.

Mr. Redmond

We agree completely with the Deputies. Deputy Bruton's point is that the business case for tax incentive measures is not put to the Oireachtas before their introduction in legislation and members have not seen the measurement of whether the business case has been delivered. If it is acceptable to the Chairman, the Irish Taxation Institute will take up Deputy Bruton's invitation to put more flesh on the bones of a certification process and make it available to the joint committee. We see this as the key to addressing the issues discussed. It relates also to the issues of exemptions, reliefs and so on raised by the Deputy.

It is important for the Oireachtas to know if the available incentives are being used. Some incentives that we see as important to the economy are not being used, which we think is due to their complexity. Let me give two examples, seed capital relief which is on its last legs and a very important relief for those who, having been made redundant, are trying to set up their own business, and relief for third level facilities where there is a crying need for construction and refurbishment of such facilities. We understand from the third level sector the complexity of the legislation is standing in the way of investment.

To return to the general discussion of principles, does the Institute of Taxation have a view on tax equity? Last year I obtained from the Minister information on the analysis of tax returns of individuals with high incomes which disclosed that a significant number with an annual income in excess of €1 million paid no tax. In terms of general social equity, does the institute think this is wrong and should be ended?

Mr. Redmond

This raises major issues. First, the institute is focused on ensuring taxpayers are compliant. The first question we would raise is whether the individuals concerned are tax compliant. I am aware that the statistics Deputy Burton obtained state only 20,000 individuals are returning an income of €100,000 or more. We found this surprising and suggest it is not painting the full picture. To return to the question put by the Deputy on the millionaires who paid no tax, the first question we would like answered is whether they are tax compliant; and, second, if they are, on what basis they have managed to achieve this effect? Our understanding is that the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners has advised the joint committee that incentives have played a part in this. However, there are issues surrounding the use of business losses, residency, charitable donations and so on. Our position is that it should be established if they are compliant and that we should ascertain how they actually managed to reduce their bill. Is it all down to incentives, or are there other contributory factors?

I appreciate the institute's statement about having not just a professional insight, as its members are marketing and selling schemes, but that it provides a social overview also. However, a good system of taxation should be easy to understand, should apply to people across a range of classes and situations, and should have measures of equity.

Mr. Redmond

I fully agree with everything the Deputy has just said. I would like to just comment on the marketing and tax schemes that our members sell. All of our members knew that we were appearing before the committee today and that we were making a submission to the Minister. We did not receive one request to lobby for an extension of release, or to bring in new release. We received some excellent suggestions on the socio-economic side, including certification.

We have found that questions could not be answered on how these millionaires apparently managed to reduce their tax bills. The Revenue Commissioners are now seeking to answer those questions and we are as interested in those answers as is the Deputy. Every citizen needs to be assured that the wealthy are paying their fair contribution to the State. If those individuals are tax compliant and have reduced their tax bill for a year due to genuine business loss reasons, then that should be acceptable. If they made an extraordinary charitable donation, then that should be acceptable. If it is solely down to the use of tax incentives — which we would find difficult to understand — then it is up to all of us to question whether it is acceptable to introduce an incentive that allows such a result.

I welcome the institute's statement that tax breaks should be subject to a process of certification. The committee had some discussions last year on film relief. Like in the early days of the BES, there were significant abuses of the scheme. The certification system lacked any serious reality. They were either loan schemes or property based schemes in which the risk element stimulating the activity — economic investment and entrepreneurship for the BES and creative film making for the film relief — was largely absent. However, the reliefs were genuinely used in other schemes. Has the institute given any consideration on what a certification process might consist of? In medical and health services, there used to be an ethical framework which said that access to such services should be primarily based on need, such as medical need, the need to be rescued, or the need for care in old age.

As far as general practitioners are concerned, we have a private health service. As we all know, general practitioners may have both publically funded and privately funded sets of patients in which one person pays €50 while someone else beside him or her in the waiting room may have a medical card. The problem with the way in which the incentives are developing in the social and medical areas is that it has nothing to do with medical need but everything to do with access to financial resources. Hence, as with Hurricane Katrina, the people who were able to leave or be rescued were people with access to money. Although the needs of those who were left behind were enormous, the criteria were based on financial resources. I welcome the institute's reference to certification in its submission, which is very positive. Has it given deeper consideration to the issue? Do its representatives wish to comment on what they see as being a necessary certification?

Mr. Redmond

I fully agree with everything the Deputy has said. If I can put it in a nutshell, the purpose of the institute's certification idea is to bring some joined-up thinking to our approach on issues such as medical care. At the outset we made the point that one should not think first about the tax, but about the need or objective. In order to do that properly, all the stakeholders must be included. This has been helpful for us and we will return to the joint committee with fleshed out proposals on the certification. In essence however, it is a sign of joined-up thinking when those at the coalface have an input into how the tax incentive should work.

May I ask one brief final question in respect of the submission? In the information which the joint committee received last year from the Revenue Commissioners, pension provision which is not identified in the institute's submission was a major element in the €8 billion cost of the reliefs. I have asked the Minister for Finance, the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners a series of questions about who benefits from pension provision. While aspects of pension provision obviously benefit all sorts of taxpayers, the schemes are very generous in respect of higher income taxpayers and very wealthy people, particularly for people involved in the ownership and sale of a company. I am sure the delegates are familiar with quite a few of those cases where it was possible for a company to make a €2 million, €3 million or €10 million contribution to the pension scheme of the leading executive, owner or founder of the company.

This system is hugely tax-efficient, especially if one returns to the argument about the people who benefit. An average industrial worker earns approximately €31,000 to €33,000 per year. In practice, people normally cannot put more than approximately 25% of their income at a maximum or possibly only approximately 10%, into pensions. Pensions relief is extraordinarily generous to very high income earners at a time when enormous numbers of workers have little or no pension provision. I wish to address this because the figures in the institute's submission do not deal with the pensions issue. Has it given this issue any consideration?

Mr. Brennan

Our submission does not deal with the pensions issue because it was based on property incentives and exemptions. Hence, it was not a deliberate attempt to exclude the issue but simply because it was not within the terms on which we were consulted and to which we have responded. The institute's position on pension contributions is probably straightforward in that from a tax perspective, we see pension contributions as being tax deferred. In effect, contributors get relief for the moneys they put into the pension fund as they put them in and they get taxed on them when the moneys come out. There is some level of tax exemption as funds come out but the vast majority of them are taxed as they come out. Clearly, there is a social need for people to provide for their retirement. Therefore, the idea of giving tax relief as money goes in and paying the tax as money comes out is, in broad terms, consistent with this. The rules are complex and there are very significant restrictions on the amount that people can contribute to pension schemes. As it is not an open-ended process, we do not see a major issue.

Mr. Brennan spoke at length about the health service, to which we will return, and the idea of building private hospitals on the grounds of public hospitals. As I understand it, well over 30% of beds in many public hospitals are taken over by consultants for their private patients. All we are doing is moving private patients out of the main buildings to separate buildings instead of taking up 30% of beds in public hospitals that are being reserved by private consultants for their private patients. This is what happens in most public hospitals.

We do not really know if this is the case, which is why we need a detailed briefing on it.

We will return to it. As many private consultants already house their private patients in public facilities, perhaps this initiative will help regularise it and make it more transparent because it is happening every day in most large hospitals.

The fear is that consultants will move with private patients to these new private hospitals and the nature of the public hospital will change.

Mr. Brennan drew attention to the fact that student accommodation is now less expensive than it was before — I would not use the word "cheap" to describe it. He argued that supply has more or less rebalanced costs with regard to student accommodation because there is a greater supply and better quality of accommodation because much of it is more modern and purpose-built.

The same argument applies in terms of taxation policy and the availability of, for example, building land if we are talking about supply and demand influencing price. There are very significant tax incentives if a person is a landowner and subsequently sells the land to a property developer. There is plenty of evidence of this, particularly in the Dublin area where a small number of landowners hold on to a very significant land bank. This influences the price if one uses that supply and demand argument. If, for example, a person is buying affordable housing, there is a clawback if he or she reincentivises himself or herself by selling the house and moving on, yet I do not see where taxation policy interacts in terms of clawbacks where something is working against the common good in terms of supply and demand on that component. It works against the common good in a number of ways. It does not just mean that individuals are likely to gain very significantly. It also means that we have unsustainable transportation patterns, which have a detrimental effect, and that it is impossible to provide public transport to a dispersed population.

With regard to transport, it has been argued that we should have a more contained development pattern, yet at the same time, taxation policy almost incentivises the opposite. Is this something that is considered in terms of a penalty system built into the tax system where there is a demonstrated disadvantage?

On the point made concerning Temple Bar, it is a very good use of a developed city centre location. It was developed because of people in the area who had a vision. I would not be as quick to dismiss it. We were going to put a bus depot there. We have an incentive to produce something in one particular location working against an integrated transportation policy because it did not automatically identify somewhere else. We incentivise people to build car parking facilities while, at the same time, another Department has a policy to restrict car parking as it wishes to deincentivise the use of cars. It is the lack of this type of joined-up thinking where taxation policy has given an incentive that, to an extent, sometimes works against the social good.

There was no vision about how the city functioned at the time when Temple Bar was being examined. If one is going to the countryside, for example, one does not need to know what street one needs to be on to get a bus. One goes to Busáras. Just one company, namely, Dublin Bus, carries 150 million passengers annually. One must know where one is going. Otherwise, one would not be able to get there. If a person happens to be a visitor, luck and being able to speak the language comes into it. If there will be taxation policy for one issue, car parks and how that space is used as an incentive in the face of what might be the policy in another area must also be examined. There has not been joined up thinking in this respect. There is also a demand for first-time buyers to be given incentives. A very good "Prime Time" programme was made on this subject, where the areas like Dundrum offered property based section 23 investments but gave a disproportional advantage to investors as opposed to first-time buyers.

We cannot examine taxation policy in isolation. This reinforces the points made regarding the need for a robust and cross-sectoral analysis of exactly what the result of these steps will be. The view of the public is that taxation policy is there for people who can hire professionals to use it, as Deputy Bruton said, to hop between incentives in order that they can avoid paying much tax. People who cannot hire professionals fall into a different category, which is the perception out there. I do not know whether there is a reply to these statements.

Mr. Redmond

I will be brief. There is a consensus here that joined-up thinking is required in this area and we echo exactly what the Deputy has said in that context. Something said earlier regarding the rural schemes struck me. If one searches on the Internet for tax incentives in Ireland, tax advisers do not come up. The sites that come up are local authorities and county councils that are trying to attract investment into their particular schemes. In this context, joined-up thinking is important. We fully accept that there is a perception that tax professionals are people engaged to provide services for the better-off. Our business is tax compliance. Our purpose is to ensure those who may have a bit more income than people on the minimum wage are tax compliant. This is an important point to make. I must be honest with the Deputy and say that, for many of the issues she has raised, the answers are not in the tax system. Tax is not the answer to everything and many of those issues cannot be solved by trying to tinker with the tax incentive system.

Mr. Brennan

Our expertise lies in the administration of the tax system rather than on policy. As a result of doing this, we have observations to make on what is working and what is not. At times of heated debate we are anxious that the baby is not thrown out with the bathwater in situations that are working. The area of policy is one for the policymakers and one in which we do not feel we have competency.

If certification is such a fair and reasonable idea, and a regular review is imposed on it, why was this not suggested until this year when there is a public outcry about high income earners availing of all this tax relief? Why was this submission not made in recent years?

Mr. Redmond

If one examines our record, one will see that we are available to the Oireachtas. I have written to every member of the Oireachtas in that context, offering assistance in any way we can. We have made submissions to Government and the Oireachtas year after year and have appeared before Oireachtas committees. We are pleased to appear today and are happy to share any thoughts.

We have always been focussed on this matter and have previously flagged the matter raised by Deputy Bruton of the introduction of incentives with no measure of what is achieved. I appeal to the committee to examine the seed capital relief scheme and the relief for third level buildings, outside of student accommodation. We have been consistent in appealing for this to be examined. Is it achieving its objective?

I thank the delegation for appearing today. I find its comments most interesting and helpful. I started a small business with another person and we benefitted from a BES scheme at a critical time. Three years ago, there was talk that this scheme would be discontinued but it is critical for raising capital for start-up companies that cannot get money from banks. I have a positive opinion of it.

There could be a tax incentive in the case of a person who leaves a big company and takes a reduction in salary in order to manage or invest in a small company. This could be a management incentive and it is a proposal I have never seen on the radar. We had this experience, bringing in a managing director who took a major reduction in salary. When one is in a small company one is working 24 hours per day.

At this meeting last week I threw bouquets at Mr. Haughey on the occasion of his 80th birthday. I believe there are more than 14,000 people working in the IFSC. I have seen a figure of 18,000 people and at least €700 million generated in tax revenue. The IFSC has given Ireland a reputation abroad as a reliable, blue chip country to deal with in respect of financial services.

I have been working on the issue of child care for the past year and a half. I sent a copy of my document to each of the five officials from the Department of Finance and the Office of the Revenue Commissioners. I have a medley of proposals to deal with child care issues, including increased supply and tax incentives. When tax relief for parents was mentioned for the first time I heard people question why they should contribute to tax relief for people who work. I never before heard objections to this family friendly measure. I said to the officials last week that there is a group of young people that needs tax relief because of high costs.

My real question, about which I have a bee in my bonnet, is on tax exemption for non-residents. I reflect the views of many on that issue. A person out of Ireland at midnight can pop over the Border in half an hour but they are not happy to pay 20% tax. What are the socio-economic benefits to Ireland for that tax relief? Does Mr. Redmond have any idea how many such people exist and how much it is worth to the economy? I raised this issue at two or three meetings in the past few weeks. Many see it as a question of greed. The people concerned make their money here but they will not pay 20% tax. That is wrong and I would like to see the exemption abolished.

Mr. Redmond

I will start with the hard question on residence, the Cinderella issue and tax exiles. This country has been successful in attracting people and corporates from other jurisdictions. These individuals and corporates have created wealth in our economy and one can take it that the territories they came from are upset about it. I will make that point upfront.

In 1995 the Oireachtas introduced new rules to determine how somebody is tax-resident and it was right to do so as the previous position was obscenely archaic. It was based on UK case law from the 19th century and was impossible to understand. The new rules introduced some clarity. It was benchmarked against the rules that pertain in most OECD territories and best practice.

Senator White asked if we know how many people abuse this system. The Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners was quite clear when he met the committee on 10 November 2004 that the Revenue Commissioners do not see this as an issue and they do not focus on people dodging in and out of Dublin Airport at five minutes to midnight. Most critically, regardless of where somebody is resident if he or she generates income in Ireland it is within the Irish tax net.

Will Mr. Redmond explain that? If a person has a business here but for some reason he or she is resident abroad for tax purposes, how is his or her income taxed in Ireland?

Mr. Redmond

It is Irish sourced income and as such——

What mechanisms are in place to know whether one is non-resident in the place where one informs the Irish authorities one resides? Where is a person resident, where is the double taxation agreement and where is the balance picked up?

If we were satisfied that every non-resident was covered by a double taxation agreement with where he or she claims residency, I would not be as worried. If one was not in Ireland, the United Kingdom or France for so many nights of the year one would be non-resident everywhere as one would not be anywhere for more than six months of the year. One could claim non-residency everywhere. Will Mr. Redmond talk us through that point?

Mr. Redmond

I do not want to assume to speak on behalf of the Revenue Commissioners who have procedures in place to do so.

That is one of our problems. We would not accept that point.

Mr. Redmond

I will let the Revenue Commissioners answer that question. If I may——

We will leave that question for the Revenue Commissioners. I understand that this year for the first time they have asked people to tick the Form 11 tax return if it is being claimed and those forms are due in on 31 October. This is the first effort——

Mr. Redmond

In summary, everybody in this room would state that not too many such people exist. The Revenue Commissioners established a high net worth group that is well-resourced and focused on the top 250 high net worth people here and with associations here. We can take it that those cases are forensically examined.

Senator White raised some other issues to which I would like to respond.

While I find Mr. Redmond's comments helpful, I am not happy with his response.

If a person is out of Ireland, England or France for a certain number of nights each year, where is he or she resident? I ask generally rather than in reference to individual examples. The authorities in England or the Channel Islands may be informed that the person does not reside there for longer than 180 nights each year. Where are these people being caught?

Mr. Redmond

There is excellent sharing of information between——

As they claim to be non-residents, they are not even required to file a tax return here.

Mr. Redmond

The sharing of information between the relevant revenue authorities is excellent, particularly with regard to the movement of people with high net worth. A protocol to the double tax agreement sets out four different questions in order that, for example, tax may be imposed according to an individual's centre of economic interest rather than place of residence. If questions arise with regard to days of residence, the two revenue authorities may use alternative methods to decide where tax falls due.

The real point is that the Revenue Commissioners have told us that they do not have a presence at any of our main airports and, more importantly, at any of the increasing number of airports from which private helicopters and jets take off at 11.50 p.m. to spend one or two hours flying above the Irish Sea.

They do not have to go overseas.

They technically leave this jurisdiction.

At 11.55 p.m.

Non-residency rules were developed because it was unfair to double tax an Irish person working in another country. The super rich now live in a globalised economy and possess private aircraft. The Revenue Commissioners do not monitor them.

For each of the past four years I tabled an amendment to successive Finance Bills simply asking for records and returns to be made by people with non-resident status. I do not believe in high marginal tax rates, a concept with which people such as the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, may have difficulty. I worked as an accountant for a major international firm. There is a perception that taxes are for little people. If high marginal rates are imposed, people avoid them by employing an accountant. People need to be well off to avail of some of the schemes we are discussing. Tax avoidance is a similar matter.

Capital gains are taxed at the modest rate of 20%.

It is a very modest rate.

However, if I sell the company I own, I can design a scheme through which I can realise several hundred million euro. I then buy a nice house in Marbella and stay there for the requisite period of time. I therefore avoid the 20% rate, even though it is attractively low. That is an ethical issue. The working person who receives a pension in the form of a modest lump sum pays a modified tax contribution tied to the release of the asset. However, there are many super wealthy high net worth individuals who have lots of off-the-shelf schemes that allow them to totally play ducks and drakes with the residency rules. I am not involved in tax other than at political oversight level but, to quote the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Brennan, I could, even with my limited knowledge, do up the scheme on the back of an envelope.

I found everything Mr. Redmond said very informative up to the moment when he said very sweetly that these were good people who were investing in our economy. I am not being personal but to me these people seem greedy. They made their money in Ireland. They want to spend time in the nicest country in the world, but they are not prepared to pay even 20% tax on what they have made in our country. Mr. Redmond said what he said very benignly, but he dropped the ball for a moment. I was with him until that point.

Mr. Redmond

Perhaps it is best if I pick up the ball and put it over the post. I would not come before this committee and comment on whether the people concerned were good, bad or indifferent, and the record will show that I did not do so. One must recognise one's limitations in life. We are straying from our area of expertise. I will be very honest with the committee and say that we have no knowledge of this issue. Let me make two comments. The first is that our interest is in whether they are tax compliant. The Oireachtas has, over the past number of years, given considerable information gathering powers to the Revenue Commissioners. They have reorganised themselves to focus on high net worth individuals and I would say we should allow them to get on with the job.

I want to return briefly to two other comments the Senator made regarding the BES. If we look at the figures, it is clear that the growth in our economy has come primarily from foreign direct investment. Indigenous activity has been fairly flat. We view a measure such as the BES, which is about indigenous growth, as very important. On the issue the Senator raised regarding a person taking a drop in salary, that relates to the seed capital scheme I mentioned.

We did not know about that.

Mr. Redmond

That is why I am bringing it to the attention of the committee as a very important scheme. It is not being utilised.

Will Mr. Redmond send us a note about it?

Mr. Redmond

Yes.

What was the scheme that related to Digital in Galway? The closure of Digital was a disaster for Galway. However, significant numbers of people from Digital, such as engineers, got involved in very creative initiatives and went on to develop businesses. Some of them became very successful, and the seed capital scheme was used extensively at that time.

I am not talking about people who lost their jobs. I am talking about people who voluntarily leave a good job to invest in a small company. There is no tax incentive to help them.

Mr. Redmond

We do not want to waste the committee's time. I suspect that situation is covered as well. We will provide a note for the committee.

Mr. Redmond made a very good presentation that painted a perhaps slightly idealised picture. One would love to think when the advertisements go out in the week before 31 October that people are thinking about their high-minded socio-economic purposes. The marketing pitch is how to reduce one's tax bill and the underlying implication is that one is a complete mug to pay tax at the full rate when one could avail of a dozen exemptions. I do not know how many tax practitioners are much focused on socio-economic gain when they are advertising and selling their services. The Oireachtas must be so.

My second comment is partly a question regarding a case which, frankly, I just do not understand. It relates to an individual who bought some State assets, made a huge capital gain therefrom and promptly became non-resident. Despite telling Pat Kenny that he would be paying €50 million or thereabouts in capital gains, he was paying nothing. I do not understand the comment that Irish-sourced income is subject to tax. This was unequivocally and indisputably Irish-sourced income, unless somebody can tell me to the contrary, and it was not subject to tax because the person had become non-resident. I do not understand what Mr. Redmond is trying to say in that regard.

Most of us are concerned about widening inequality in our society. The point can be made, for example, that the section 23 incentives were one of the most successful property incentives but we had a situation in the past where professional people, including lawyers, doctors and so on, bought up apartments by the dozen thereby squeezing younger people out of the market. I would argue that much of the widening inequality we are complaining of is property based and is even inter-generational. I suppose most of us who are older are a little embarrassed by the considerable sacrifices younger people have to make to get on to the property market when we are living in houses that many of us do not want to leave or sell but which, in theory, are worth a great deal of money. The case can be made that some of those incentives, many of which are being phased out, have been exceptionally generous but they must be tightened up.

I have two questions, apart from the earlier one about the Irish-sourced income. First, I am not recommending this but if all property related incentives including health, education and so on were abolished or phased out, what would Mr. Redmond see as the socio-economic-financial impact? What would wealthier people do with their money? A general election has been fought in Germany in part on this issue and, interestingly, it was a party of the centre right that appeared to be advocating a flat single tax rate and the abolition of most of the exemptions. One comment since the election was to the effect that most German people like their tax breaks and incentives.

Second, one of the suggestions that has been made is that everybody other than people who are lower income and poor should pay at least a minimum rate of tax income. The argument against that is that if such a rate were set at15%, for example, the tax practitioners would try to make the maximum and there would be even greater frenzy come 31 October in getting people on the reduced rate of 15%. What is Mr. Redmond's view of that debate?

Mr. Redmond

The Senator has asked a number of questions. We might share them across the table but I will deal with one or two of them. The Senator raised the case of an individual taxpayer. We have no knowledge of that case apart from what we have read in the newspapers.

I am talking about the general principle.

Mr. Redmond

I will come to that. The general principle remains because it is stated in our tax law that Irish-sourced income is liable to Irish tax. The case the Senator is talking about, from what I read in the newspapers, was a capital gain. That would be in the capital gains tax code and a different set of rules would apply but it would be inappropriate for me to talk about individual taxpayers.

That is not universal. I believe there are circumstances where if the person's activity for the income generation is not in Ireland, there is an exemption. It is not universal; there is a way out of it. I am not an expert on tax but what has been said is not categorically true, even in respect of ordinary income as opposed to capital gains.

The example Senator Mansergh gave is alive and well. The only stipulation relating to capital gains is that the period of non-residence has been lengthened from three to five years. That is nothing to somebody who has a high quality house in Marbella or Portugal.

Mr. Redmond

We do not know anything about this case. However, we follow the legislation and an exit charge has been introduced with regard to capital gains tax that addresses the issue raised by Deputy Burton.

It is not very effective. Perhaps we should invite the Revenue Commissioners to come before the committee to discuss it.

Ms Murray

I wish to make a general observation. I see that the taxation of these internationally mobile people is troubling members of the committee and that is understandable.

It is troubling the vast majority of Irish people.

It is not just the committee but the people, for whom we are speaking.

The reason there has been a debate in the past 12 months about tax incentives is that Irish people who are paying a reasonable amount of tax see wealthier people paying no tax. As a result, people are seeking equity in the system. There is a widespread view in society that everyone should pay their fair share. That is where the debate has arisen and equity is a large element of that debate.

Ms Murray

I do not wish to take away from the equity issue but if we are examining the issue of taxing the people concerned, it is a difficult area of taxation. There are two separate issues. One is to determine what is the basis of taxing people who move in and out of the country and second, having determined that, how to administer the system. In the system we have the basis of taxation for the people concerned — it is probably fair to say there will never be a perfect basis for taxing people who move around so much — is a system that operates in many other OECD countries. To go outside the OECD system could cause more problems, and more tax to drop out of the net or more double taxation, than to stay within it. The OECD principles have shaped the basis for taxing the people concerned. If one takes that as the basis, there are undoubtedly difficulties in administering the system and keeping people in and out of it.

Does Ms Murray accept that in some jurisdictions, most notably the United States, there are citizenship tests? Is it not a fundamental republican principle, in the broad sense of the word "republic", that if one is a citizen of a republic it is one's right to enjoy the benefits of being a citizen but that one also owes obligations to the republic, which include paying one's fair share of tax?

Ms Murray

I accept the Deputy's point about the United States which is probably the exception to the rule. Our EU counterparts and other countries such as Australia and New Zealand are using the OECD basis for their residence tests. I accept that the United States is different.

Most of those countries are not republics. They are part of the old British Commonwealth and it is from there that much of the system derives.

Ms Murray

Continental countries such as France, Germany, Spain and Italy have the same basis of assessment as Ireland. We are not here to say that it is the right or wrong basis. We are just putting it in context. If we were to change the way we tax the people concerned, there are implications in doing so in terms of the other OECD countries with which we deal.

The person who spends 100 days in Ireland is not resident. If that person spends 100 days in England and 100 days in another country, where are they resident for tax purposes in general?

Mr. Redmond

The Chairman is straying from what we were invited here to discuss. We could answer the question but the answer given might be wrong and I would be upset if we gave wrong information to the committee. Members have asked detailed questions about a topic not on the agenda.

I am sure the delegation appreciates from where members are coming on this.

It is extraordinary that the representatives of the Irish Taxation Institute who advise people on tax matters every day are not able to tell the joint committee how the system operates for non-tax residents and people who divide their time between several jurisdictions, some of which may have no income tax requirements. I would have thought they would be able to give us some examples of how the system works.

Mr. Redmond

I apologise if the Senator feels we are not being helpful. We are trying to be helpful.

Is Mr. Redmond saying he does not know the answer to the question or is he simply unwilling to answer it?

Mr. Brennan

We can give a basic explanation in an Irish context but we will not hold ourselves out to be experts on taxation in France, the United Kingdom or Luxembourg.

Mr. Sherlock

A person residing in Ireland for more than 183 days is considered to be tax-resident. It is possible that, to use the example given, a person who resides in Ireland for 100 days and in the United Kingdom for a further 100 days is not considered to be resident anywhere.

That is the problem.

Mr. Sherlock

Mr. Redmond referred earlier to the fundamental principle. A person's Irish-sourced income — not including capital gains — irrespective of where he or she resides is taxable in this State.

How is that income taxable if the person is a non-resident?

Mr. Sherlock

It is income sourced in Ireland and tax is deducted at source.

What about capital gains tax?

Mr. Sherlock

Capital gains tax is not covered.

It was stated that it is the job of the Irish Taxation Institute to ensure people are tax compliant. People often seek information from the institute in order not to be tax compliant but to discover loopholes which will assist them in reducing the amount of tax owed. People who use the Cinderella loophole do so having gathered enough information from the system to allow them do so. It is difficult for us to understand from where they are getting that type of information if not from professionals.

Mr. Brennan

It is important this matter be put in context. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of high earners or those who make on capital gains do pay their taxes. Each individual has a right to choice and to read the legislation and to take from it what he or she wishes. The role of tax advisers is to explain the legislation. They do not encourage people to pay all their taxes and avail of no relief nor do they advise people not to pay tax and to take up residence elsewhere. Tax advisers do a good job in explaining complex legislation to people who need such advice. That is the extent of their responsibility. Getting into a moral debate on this is, as Mr. Redmond said, not something with which we feel comfortable.

We were merely seeking information on basic tax policy. We may have to invite in officials from the Revenue Commissioners to reply to the questions we have directed to the Irish Taxation Institute. Traditionally, a person resident in Ireland who later enters the high earnings bracket subsequently wishes to be considered non-resident. Do such persons have to specify where they will reside for the purposes of the Government applying the double taxation agreement? Does such a person declare himself or herself non-resident and disappear off the radar?

Mr. Brennan

While they continue to have income or gains arising in Ireland, they are required to continue to lodge tax returns with Revenue. If they emigrate, take everything with them, do not return, and deal with their tax affairs up to the date they leave, Revenue does not hear of them again.

Does Mr. Brennan think the tax exemption for non-residents is a good tax relief?

Mr. Brennan

It is not a question of it being a tax——

This committee is here to represent the people and the spending of public moneys on their behalf. There is social unrest among PAYE workers who see everything being taken from them, while they see the people who avail of these tax breaks presented as altruistic, sponsoring icons. If I were Minister for Finance, I would not allow this. Everybody should make a contribution.

Mr. Brennan

We would certainly agree that everybody should pay his or her fair share of tax.

I am not just talking about compliance. It is a bad example that these people are not prepared to pay 20%.

Mr. Brennan

It is not a matter on which we can comment. People have choices and this is what they do. However, the Senator should not interpret that as the institute having taken a position one way or the other on the matter. All the institute can do is interpret the situation as presented.

The basis of Mr. Brennan's opening remarks was that he welcomed the Minister's reference to equity in the tax system. From a political point of view and as a member of this committee, I concur with Senator Mansergh that there is growing inequality here. We are delighted that all the statistics published about Ireland show we have a great economic performance. However, we also have a growing divergence, which is only matched by the United States, between very wealthy and very poor people. Taxation policy is one of the key elements in that inequity.

In Mr. Brennan's presentation he appears to welcome the issue of tax equity, but before every budget he comes here to do his professional job and lobby for more allowances or greater clarity. What about the other side of the street where there are glaring abuses in the tax system? For example, someone who will make €200 million or €300 million on the sale of his or her company, can use various devices to effectively reduce his or her tax. Deputy Catherine Murphy gave the example of a land developer who holds land banks in the Dublin area who can, effectively, appear to avoid any tax on that land holding. This is one of the reasons land is hoarded with significant consequences for the housing market.

Does Mr. Brennan think everybody should pay at least a minimum effective rate of taxation or does he find it acceptable that somebody with significant assets and a high net worth, or somebody with an income in excess of €1 million, should pay no tax? An ordinary single person on the No. 39 bus who earns approximately €33,000 must pay tax of 42% on some of that income and on any overtime payments. That is a high rate. However, the person with a few hundred million euro can manoeuvre his returns in order that by using property based incentives, non-residency or other devices, he or she can choose whether to pay tax.

The people concerned would be well advised to pay something. I am sure the institute's members advise people that rather than paying nothing they should pay a few bob because at least this would not look as bad. This is the heart of the equity argument. Has the institute a position on this? Is it acceptable that these ultra-rich people do not pay as much as a 29-year old earning €33,000 with a bit of overtime who pays 42%?

I apologise to Senator Phelan. I will call on him.

I asked two questions, one of which was Deputy Burton's. The other was what would be the impact if all tax incentives were abolished and what would the people availing of the incentives be likely to do. These questions might help clarify public debate on the issue.

Mr. Redmond

The honest answer is we do not know because that is not our area of expertise. All we can say is this is one of the key issues on which the two consultants commissioned by the Minister have been asked to report back. On the question of where the money might go, one need only read the newspapers to see property fairs from almost every country in the world coming to Dublin. I suspect a lot of the money will go to overseas property but this is an uninformed view.

I refer to the question asked by Deputy Burton and me about the minimum tax rate. In the view of the delegation, is there merit in the Department of Finance argument that what would start as a minimum rate would end up as a maximum rate?

Mr. Brennan

We are looking at the question of whether it is reasonable for higher earners to pay no tax and we are considering that question in the context of the ongoing debate on property reliefs. The institute is of the view it is reasonable for legislators to make reliefs available to promote certain behaviour and these should be actively monitored to ensure they are achieving the right purpose. In those circumstances the institute is of the view it is reasonable for taxpayers to use those reliefs under the terms provided for in the legislation. When barriers are placed in the way of using these reliefs, such as a minimum tax, the effectiveness of the reliefs are restricted.

The main concern of the institute is to have integrity in the system and that taxpayers act compliantly. On the question of whether there should be a minimum tax, experience in the United States, which has an alternative minimum tax, has shown that high earners tend to shelter their way down to that alternative minimum tax. Our experience as practitioners in this country is that a very significant number of high earners do not shelter their tax liabilities at all. Our concern is this would create a low rate of tax for the rich rather than doing the opposite. This is a view because we do not pretend to have an exact science on this matter.

Ms Murray

Senator Mansergh asked for examples of where investment might go and I will provide one example. Yesterday I saw an example being advertised. Some Irish tax breaks are being wound down and will expire under their current terms next July 2006. France has recently introduced exemptions for residential accommodation and people who would have previously invested in Irish units are being advised to consider investing in French residential units because the French are hoping to use this exemption to expand their domestic units for tourism purposes across the country. This is just one example that comes to mind of the fact that the money will move as people can move their money quite easily.

I welcome the delegation from the Irish Taxation Institute. The delegation will have gathered from the contributions of other members that this is an issue about which we all have very strong views. I do not disagree with any of the views expressed by other members of the committee.

I was somewhat disappointed with the opening contribution by the president of the institute and the lack of emphasis being placed on the subject of equity. As a politician, I get it in the neck every day about the numbers who do not pay any level of tax, or pay significantly lower levels of tax than the average PAYE worker. Deputy Burton was involved in the recent publication of statistics in this regard. Surely equity needs to be a fundamental part of our taxation system. I am disappointed that the representatives of the Irish Taxation Institute emphasised the socio-economic impact of tax incentives and neglected the need for equity. The delegates said the institute supports the idea of equity, but its submission does not seem to bear this out.

As someone who became a first-time buyer over the summer, I firmly believe many of the property based reliefs and incentives which have been provided heretofore have passed their shelf life at this stage. It is time for us to consider new areas in which new reliefs and exemptions could usefully be introduced. The existing incentives have served a key purpose in the regeneration of the economy in the past ten or 15 years. The Chairman mentioned the provincial towns renewal scheme. Although I am from County Kilkenny, the nearest town to me is New Ross in County Wexford, which has benefited from the scheme to some extent. There has not been any take-up of the scheme in the parts of the town which were designated as tax relief areas. We should encourage a shift from section 23 type schemes to schemes which benefit provincial and rural towns, as well as disadvantaged areas of Dublin and other large urban areas.

Transport is an issue of particular concern to me and most members of the committee. Tax incentive schemes are in place to encourage the development of park and ride facilities and car parks. As the provision of transport facilities is so important, we need to consider the introduction of appropriate tax reliefs and exemptions across the board. I do not know whether the institute has any views on this matter. I agree with Mr. Redmond's comments about tax incentives for the provision of accommodation for third level students. In the three years since I left Waterford Institute of Technology, I have seen a tremendous increase in the number and standard of buildings provided for such accommodation in the vicinity of the institute. It is a good example of a scheme that has worked.

I agree with the comments of most speakers, including Deputy Burton, about tax incentive schemes within the health system. It would be useful to have a discussion with departmental officials about this area. There seems to have been a complete shift in the Government's policy on the provision of health services in this country, as more and more private hospitals are being built. I agree with Deputy Burton that it is unclear whether the provision of such facilities will correspond with levels of need. I know of a number of proposals to provide such facilities in my local area. It would be useful to discuss this matter further at a later date.

I had intended to ask about the issue of a flat tax rate, but the matter has already been discussed. I would be interested to know whether the institute——

The German electorate has given its answer.

It has. Does the institute have ideas about the general areas in which reliefs and exemptions could be usefully applied in the future? In which areas does it consider it is clear that the incentives have come to the end of their shelf life?

Mr. Brennan

Members seem to be concerned, on the basis of my presidential opening speech, that the institute supports an inequitable tax system, but that is the furthest thing from the truth. I would like to make it clear that the institute supports equity in the tax system.

I would like to outline the context in which I made my comments in my opening speech. The point I was trying to make was that the institute does not necessarily consider that the appropriate use of tax incentives by high earners to shelter their tax liabilities creates inequity. One of the institute's core principles is its support for an equitable tax system. It does not believe, however, that the use of properly positioned tax incentives by certain sectors is inequitable. The institute does not hold such a position if taxpayers are acting in a compliant manner, in accordance with the legislation that has been put in place. If the tax reliefs are targeted in the right areas, which was the main plank of the institute's proposal, the taxpayers in question will get tax relief of €42 if they invest €100 in an area that is favoured by the Government.

We share the view that some property based tax reliefs, of which there are too many in the list to ask me to go through, have probably reached the end of their shelf lives. Rural renewal schemes should be reinvigorated. Like Senator Phelan, I am from Kilkenny and know exactly what he meant. Transportation is another of the many areas which must be considered. We do not pretend as an institute that we have all the answers on the direction tax policy should take or where incentives should be directed. These are matters for a wide range of Government bodies. Our area of expertise involves commenting on the effectiveness of incentives and how they work in practice based on our experience.

There is an important public transport incentive whereby anyone who buys an annual bus or rail commuting ticket can set the purchase price off against tax. The incentive is not well enough publicised to ensure people make sufficient use of it.

Mr. Brennan

We do not publicise general tax reliefs and incentives to the extent we should. In fact, we seem to keep quiet about them in some cases in the hope taxpayers will not claim them. The relief referred to by Senator Mansergh is a very good example. As part of the institute's work to promote awareness, we launched a campaign, Tax Return Week, the basis of which was to inform the ordinary man on the street that there are reliefs of which he may not have been aware. It is work the State rather than simply the institute should do as part of the provision of information to the public generally.

On behalf of the joint committee, I thank the members of the institute for their presentation and taking part in the detailed session of questions and answers. It may be a sign of the times that the discussion became far more lively than I expected it would, which is positive. It is good for the committee and the institute to hear each other's opinions. The committee will have to raise some of the issues which were discussed with the Revenue Commissioners or the Department of Finance directly as they are more involved in the creation of policy than the institute.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.40 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 5 October 2005.

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