JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Sep 2004

Co-operation Ireland: Presentation.

Chairman

I am pleased to welcome a delegation from Co-operation Ireland. In attendance are its chief executive, Mr. Tony Kennedy, and Mr. Gareth Casey from its Dublin office. Co-operation Ireland has been active for 25 years promoting understanding and respect between the people of Northern Ireland and the Republic. Its activities involve community organisations, schools, youth groups and local authorities in developing cross-Border and all-island linkages. Co-operation Ireland has pointed to the need to build links between the political process and activities at a non-governmental level. Its presentation will address how the connection between elected representatives and peace building at community level can be improved and how, by working in partnership, we can improve the impact of peace building at community level.

Before we commence, I remind the meeting that while members are covered by privilege, others appearing before the committee are not. I invite Mr. Kennedy to make his presentation.

Mr. Tony Kennedy

I thank the Chairman for his timely warning. I am grateful to the joint committee for the opportunity to make a presentation today. I will set out the overall context of North-South co-operation from the perspective of Co-operation Ireland, briefly discuss our work and make a proposition as to how North-South co-operation could be more effective.

While no one can deny that life for most people on the island of Ireland has improved since the first ceasefire ten years ago and the signing of the Good Friday Agreement six years ago, it is also undeniable that it has not improved for everyone. Members will be more aware than I of the ongoing political discussions and the current impasse.

It is worth highlighting that division on the ground has increased. To take Belfast as an example, when the first ceasefires took place, there were 15 of what we euphemistically call peace walls. There are now 37 such walls. The only good news in this respect is that we are getting very good at building them. The wall between the Springfield and Shankill roads recently won an architecture award in Brick Monthly, which is a small consolation.

Increased division on the ground feeds into instability at political level. This is not solely a Northern Ireland issue. Both major communities in Northern Ireland legitimate their position by looking at attitudes in the Republic of Ireland or, to be more precise, their perception of attitudes here. Life in the Republic is affected by what happens in Northern Ireland. I was informed yesterday by a person who had spoken to a businessman in the United States considering investing here that he raised the level of suicides among young men in the North and the South. Inward investors pay particular attention to the whole island and we are all aware of the importance of promoting cross-Border co-operation and tourism.

Recent research commissioned by Co-operation Ireland into the impact of EU funded cross-Border programmes showed there are solid, positive advantages in peace building from community focused, cross-Border activities. For some Unionists, in particular, activities across the Border facilitate contact with Nationalists which is much less conflict based than contacts within Northern Ireland. It is easier to meet someone and discuss your differences with them if you are not rubbing shoulders with them the next day. It is sometimes easier to travel 100 miles than 100 yards.

Currently cross-Border interaction takes place on two levels. The first level is intergovernmental, which includes the North-South Ministerial Council, the six North-South Implementation Bodies and the cross-departmental sectoral groups. The importance of this interaction cannot be overstated. It has given a tremendous boost to North-South co-operation and over 700 civil and public servants are now involved in these groups.

The second level of cross-Border interaction is at community level which, oddly enough, is overwhelmingly funded by the European Union PEACE and INTERREG programmes. By the time the second PEACE programme finishes it will have put over €1,200 million into peace-building in Northern Ireland's six Border counties and approximately €180 million into cross-Border co-operation.

There is a need for much greater co-ordination between the two levels of the governmental organisations and the peace-building organisations. This assertion is based on the activities of Co-operation Ireland. We are the largest peace-building charity on the island and we promote reconciliation on several levels. Some members of this committee have spoken at Co-operation Ireland events, such as the Civic Link project which involves 33 schools North and South. Young people identify a common problem in their area and look to see how they can resolve it. They are then linked with a school in the other jurisdiction which has identified a similar problem and they meet each other and swap information. In this way they learn about their own society and each other's society and they develop friendship. Research shows that attitudes towards other groups become more positive the more contact that is made.

We are also an intermediary body for the European Union. We promote cross-Border community links, training and business links through the PEACE programme and community networking through the INTERREG programme. This is a massive amount of work for Co-operation Ireland. By the time we finish the PEACE II and INTERREG programmes for which we are responsible, we will have administered almost €39 million on behalf of the European Union for 146 projects. These projects are diverse and include the Dunfield project which encourages Dundalk FC and Linfield FC to come together, as well as a cross-Border craft industry network which we are sponsoring.

We believe we are most effective if we work in partnership. No voluntary organisation can be effective working on its own. We have started a programme with the Centre for Cross-Border Studies. We administer some of the EU's work with ADM and Combat Poverty. We co-ordinate a group which we established called the Ad Hoc North-South Civil Society Group, which includes IBEC, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and other voluntary groups. We set this up because there was a line in the agreement which said consideration would be given to establishing a North-South consultative committee. It has not yet happened, so we thought we could at least start discussions to see if we could do something.

We are actively involved in undertaking and encouraging research into North-South co-operation. We need to know what works and what is effective and we need to learn from it and adapt new programmes.

We are all aware of the speculation about a new Minister for Foreign Affairs. His or her first concern will be completing the negotiations surrounding the agreement. Regardless of whether these negotiations are successful, there remains an important challenge of promoting cross-Border co-operation in a non-political context. Our experience of the past 25 years leads us to believe that one will only get value for money in this regard and be properly effective if a number of points are taken into consideration. These are laid out in the document provided.

One needs to be clear about what it is hoped will be achieved. When governments develop an economic policy they are quite clear about what they want to achieve. They develop the policy, they set targets and they hold people to those targets. Building a shared future should be treated as seriously as building a prosperous future. We propose that the objective should be encouraging a process of ever closer relationships between the two parts of the island so as to remove hindrances that the Border presents to economic co-ordination, social cohesion and cultural reconciliation with the aim of ultimately leading to an island at peace with itself.

We think it important that there should be a strategic approach to cross-Border co-operation led by Government but in consultation with civil society. The Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Kitt, spoke at a European confederation for conflict resolution conference in March about the Irish Government's attitude to civil society and conflict areas overseas. He said that a representative civil society has an important role to play in the whole area of conflict prevention and crisis management, working with governments and at grass roots level. He noted the importance of capacity building, both for local civil society and for local populations. I would argue that if it works elsewhere in the world, it should also work in Ireland.

We believe mechanisms should be established for dialogue between the political sectors and civil society on strategies and policies for building peace and for cross-Border co-operation. We believe that in addition to cross-Border co-operation one needs to look at the specific issues of peace-building and reconciliation. The two Governments have asked that the current PEACE programme be extended for two years. Who knows what will happen after that? We need to plan now for what will happen when PEACE II ends.

It is essential that there should be a co-ordinated approach. I believe we can do much better if we work together. I ask the committee to agree in principle to the idea of a partnership approach in promoting cross-Border co-operation. I also ask the committee to consider approaching the new Minister to request the establishment of a working group, including representatives of civil society, to draw up proposals to make this happen.

The other document given to the committee is headed Executive Summary and commences with a rationale for co-operation. The committee will be delighted to know that I do not intend to go through this, although I will be happy to answer questions about it. These are our thoughts on the type of structures that could be put in place. We do not think we have all the answers but we wanted to put forward some proposals which could be considered at this time or in the future. Thank you.

Chairman

I thank Co-operation Ireland for a clear presentation and a statement of the factual position. This committee is aware of the value of the work it does and we have seen it in its different forms, particularly in the Civic Link project, its work with the schools and the various other projects that it does. We recognise the strategic importance of that work and of ensuring that it continues in building relationships on the ground.

A number of Deputies and Senators wish to make a contribution.

Senator O’Rourke

I thank Co-operation North for its 25 years of commitment to the cause of partnership and peace in Ireland. I had not realised the organisation went back that far but I do remember over various years and Ministries, particularly at the Department of Education and Science, quite a lot of close work that we did with Co-operation Ireland. It would not be excessive to say that since it started its work it has been like a shining beacon in the North-South debate. It carried out its business in an equitable way.

I was interested when Mr. Kennedy said that there is an amount of overlapping. I do not know if he used the word ‘overlapping', but that was the general sense of what I understood. He spoke of an overlapping of funding, in general, to the North-South project. That includes everybody who contributes and every group that benefits. He did not develop that point. Perhaps it is a difficult point because people do not like showing the mote in other people's eyes. I have always felt that any money invested in the North-South project is money well used. However, there is, of late, quite a lot of overlapping and perhaps the unravelling of that might lead to a more focused and more efficient use of this funding. Mr. Kennedy spoke about the end of the PEACE programme in the next two years. Where does everybody go, and what happens then? Perhaps he would talk in more detail about the element of overlapping.

He also spoke of the need to develop this partnership, as he called it. I am sure the Chairman and this committee would wish to help Co-operation Ireland in any way we can in that regard. Perhaps Mr. Kennedy would flesh out this idea of partnership a bit more. I know the rationale for partnership may be contained in the documents provided. However, nothing beats hearing it said. It is far more affirmative when a matter is spoken of publicly.

I wish Co-operation Ireland a happy quarter of a century. We should think of all those people over the years whose lives have been touched for the good by its work.

Chairman

We can only make a toast with the water we have here. Like Senator O'Rourke, I find it hard to believe that 25 years have passed since Co-operation Ireland began its work.

Senator Bradford

I would also like to welcome Mr. Casey and Mr. Kennedy and thank them for their fine presentation. Their opening comments struck me and we should all recognise and appreciate them. We tend to forget that the divisions on the ground in Northern Ireland are more profound and more serious than they were at the height of the conflict ten or 12 years ago. The witnesses have given us an impression on what they can do and what we can do with them to resolve that, but I want to commend them on their own efforts. It is something on which all of us need to reflect. While guns may be relatively silent in Northern Ireland, that bitter divide is still there. A huge amount of progress must yet be made.

I note with interest that Co-operation Ireland has a local authorities programme and I apologise for not being aware of it. I see that some excellent initiatives are being taken. One of things I got tired of proposing when I was a member of Cork County Council was that we at council level should pro-actively try to ensure that towns and villages in the Republic of Ireland twin with towns and villages across Northern Ireland. I have no difficulty with the twinning arrangements into which our towns and villages enter. It generally seems to be somewhere in Brittany or some far-flung parts of the US, or perhaps even South America.

It would be very practical if towns in the Republic twinned with towns in Northern Ireland. It would increase the flow of dialogue and contact between the peoples. It is laudable that the Mayor of Cork, Paddy Sheehan, is currently visiting Cook County, Illinois. However, I would like to see mayors from Cork and other parts of the country visit Northern Ireland more frequently. In addition to what Mr. Kennedy has included on his local authority programme, I suggest that he also liaise with a group such as LAMA or the general council of county councils. There is money available from Europe for twinning, but we always look at the big twinning projects. We should try to ensure that every town in the Republic has some sort of formal arrangement with a town or a village in Northern Ireland. It is not a rocket science proposal, but is one of these small pieces which would help to fit the big jigsaw.

Senator Mooney

I welcome the representatives of Co-operation Ireland. Senator Bradford referred to an aspect to which we do not give sufficient recognition. If one were to read the report by Co-operation Ireland, the impression would be that there was very little going on between elected representatives on the island. There is a well developed structure between LAMA and the general council. As I come from Leitrim which is a Border county, I may have a different perspective on this from my colleague, Senator Bradford, from Cork.

I suggest that there are three Irelands. There are those who live in the North of Ireland, who have a view of Northern Ireland and the South, there are those of us who live in the Border counties who have a view of the attitudes of the South versus the North, and then there is the rest. I find this regularly in debates in the House. I do not single out Senator Bradford because he has been positive force and has brought his own expertise in this area as a former Joint Chairman of the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body. However, even my own party colleagues from the more southern part of Ireland would have their own set perceptions of what the North is like. My wife comes from west Cork and she told me that when she was growing up there was never any thought of travelling to the North of Ireland. This was during a relatively peaceful time. Once a line was drawn from Galway to Athlone to Dublin, Northern Ireland was somewhere else. The same was true about people in the North travelling to the South. I was pleased to see that a cultural dimension has been emphasised by Co-operation Ireland.

There have been 25 years of excellent work, glowing reports and a very strong interaction at local authority level. I also note from my own involvement in various community groups in County Leitrim that there are strong cross-Border relationships, for example in child care. As a member of the county development board in my county, I agreed to a proposal to link up with our opposite numbers in Fermanagh on joint initiatives. This is happening across the Border counties, yet none of it seems to have come across today. The witnesses seem to be very narrowly focused on civil society, as if somehow civil society is the only way forward. When one thinks of partnership, the impression given to someone coming in from a foreign country is that it is only about civil society. In fact, it is not.

I accept that the political process will not solve this. Why is it that ten years since the ceasefire, there has been an opening up of relations between North and South? I refer to the period of ten years for a specific reason. I was chairman of my local authority in 1994, which was actively involved in setting up ICBAN, referred to here as one of the local authority initiatives, dealing with a waste management programme. ICBAN is the central Border network. As chairman I travelled across the Border to visit my opposite number, Gerry Gallagher from Garrison, a nationalist, and Gerry Burns, who ended up as the Northern Ireland Ombudsman. At the time he was the CEO of Fermanagh District Council. There was a window of opportunity which opened up as a result of the IRA ceasefire. Members of Fermanagh County Council had not spoken to us in Leitrim for 25 years, despite the fact that we have 18 miles of border with County Fermanagh. Some of our key towns have suffered dreadfully from the blowing up of Border roads. There was no interaction whatsoever. All of that has been changed and been transformed over the last while, yet there does not appear to be any recognition of that here. Co-operation Ireland is pursuing its own agenda.

The witnesses asked the committee to agree to the principle of a partnership approach to promoting cross-Border co-operation. That is a cliché. It sounds good and I have no problem with it — it is like voting for Christmas. The witnesses went on to say that the Minister should establish a working group involving civil society to draw up proposals. I have problems with that. It is about an exclusivity, not an inclusivity. I am concerned that Co-operation Ireland thinks that by drawing all the various elements North and South together we will all set off on the road to Utopia.

After 25 years, why is it that there has not been a change in attitudes, primarily among those of the Unionist persuasion in the North? As recently as last week, some Unionists travelled south to address the Reform Association, which I confess I did not know even existed until I started reading the letters page of The Irish Times. Deputy John Bruton also made an interesting address to the association. There were several Unionists present. I read the detailed report on the meeting in the Mansion House by Bruce Arnold, who is also a member. It came across to me that there were intransigent Unionists and what surprised me was the rhetoric. It was as if somehow they lived in an island in which they believed that Republic of Ireland was the same as that depicted the film, “The Quiet Man”. Somehow we have not moved on and even if we had moved on, they were going to be the last people to acknowledge the fact. The Ireland that they seem to think exists in the South is far removed from the reality we know it to be. What can Co-operation Ireland do to change such perceptions?

As Mr. Kennedy is aware, this theme consistently emerges in the language of Northern Ireland politicians. One hears the Republic referred to as a foreign state or people say they have nothing in common with Irish culture. One man said that while he was Irish, he had nothing in common with the Republic. Is Co-operation Ireland doing anything to address the identity crisis to which John Hume constantly refers? Without addressing this crisis and changing attitudes, there is no hope of reconciling the two diverging views on the island. Although I can see the mote in our own eye, so to speak, and do not wish to single out Unionists, they have a real problem with regard to the transformation of Southern Irish society.

Deputy T. Dempsey

I thank Mr. Kennedy for his presentation. Some years ago, as a teacher, I participated in an exchange with a school in Northern Ireland. The group from the North was accompanied by a female teacher with a strong sporting background. She asked if she could come to watch me training a Gaelic football team. The Down team was about to play in the All-Ireland final and I said I presumed she would watch her county play. She replied she would not watch the game as it would hurt her family too much to do so. This position will be familiar to people in the South who have similar problems, although from a different perspective, with regard to watching soccer. This exchange was enlightening as it indicated the lack of co-operation and integration among sports. Sport could play a major role in bringing people together — sporting encounters usually do — but unfortunately it appears to have divided in this case.

The visit, which lasted for two or three days, was too short. Would it be possible to arrange for students from Northern Ireland to come to the South to study a component of the syllabus and vice versa? A student from the North could study, say, Yeats’s poetry or the 1916 rising. The latter would be a little more controversial, although Yeats’s poetry also deals with the rising. This would provide an interchange of instruction in a common component of the syllabus. We could also integrate the social and civil and political education — SCPE — course. Some form of exchange is necessary if co-operation is to be effective rather than superficial or cosmetic. Perhaps Co-operation Ireland will consider this proposal.

Chairman

Mr. Kennedy referred to future developments. As he is probably aware, the European Council, at its meeting of 17 and 18 June, called on the Commission to examine the possibility of aligning interventions under the PEACE II programme and the International Fund for Ireland with those of other programmes under the Structural Funds, which will come to an end in 2006. The possible extension of the PEACE II programme for the period 2005-06 is the subject of discussions between the Departments of Finance on both parts of the island and the European Commission.

While there has been considerable co-operation, as Mr. Kennedy stated, much remains to be done. The building of a lasting peace is highly dependent on the relationships which have been established. In education, we set up a joint initiative in Middletown, close to Monaghan, at a wonderful premises vacated by the nuns of the St. Louis order. The nuns wrote to Ministers asking if they were interested in using the premises to continue to build North-South relations through education or training. As a result, the Department of Education and Science visited the nuns and proposed an all-island centre of excellence for autism.

Senator O’Rourke

The centre has opened.

Chairman

It was inaugurated by Martin McGuinness and me shortly before the Assembly was dissolved in 2002. The nuns of the Order of St. Louis offered us a very good package. The project then had to executed. I was in Africa in recent weeks but I understand the initiative was launched in my absence.

I understand there are approximately 600 children with autism involved. The idea of the initiative was to provide excellent standards and we were able to combine some excellent standards in the North with some in the South.

There are many opportunities to promote co-operation and Senator Bradford's proposal should be acted on. We should get Drumshanbo to do it first.

Senator Mooney

What is the proposal?

Chairman

It is to link towns North and South of the Border.

Senator Mooney

Twinning is already taking place between North and South, although it is perhaps not as extensive as one would wish.

Chairman

Senator Bradford was referring to extending it. As regards the request that the joint committee should agree in principle to a partnership to promote cross-Border co-operation, since 1987 almost everything we have done in the South has been based on partnership. It lies at the root of our economic success.

Senator Mooney

Perhaps familiarity is breeding contempt.

Chairman

Will Mr. Kennedy elaborate on the request to establish a working group? Did he mean it would also involve civil society?

Mr. Kennedy

I will make a general comment. Having been strongly advised not to speak for more than ten minutes, I dwelt on the matters I consider of greatest importance rather than reviewing the overall picture. If I gave an impression that not much is happening, it was not my intention. There are many positive developments. For example, three local authority cross-Border groupings have been established and we have the Co-operation and Working Together initiative in the health service. We also have the Government agencies — the North-South bodies. There has, therefore, been a range of developments.

My reference to involving civil society was not intended to mean exclusive involvement of civil society, rather that it should be one of many actors and should not be excluded from the discussions.

It is a good question as to why we have been doing this for 25 years and why, when a fortune has been spent on North-South co-operation using EU peace programmes, certain views persist. The answer is that this is a slow process. I have evidence that the views of those with whom we work or have contact change. Co-operation Ireland has been around for 25 years and I have been in my current position for 12 years. As members will have gathered, I am a native of Belfast. As I travel extensively between Belfast and Dublin, it is natural to me.

When one asks children taking part in a civic link project, who are setting off to meet a group in County Meath, what kind of people they expect to meet — we do this before the groups meet — they say they think they will meet people who live in thatched cottages, milk cows and support the IRA. Those views persist and are wrong but they need to be tackled slowly. Some members may have seen reports on a project we assisted which brought children from the Mount Vernon estate in north Belfast, where the UVF is particularly active, to the site of the Battle of the Boyne, accompanied by Sean Collins, a former mayor of Drogheda. We work with local groups and take individuals and small groups to see what life is really like on either side of the Border because this is the only thing that defuses misconceptions. That is the importance of our work.

The magnificent initiative regarding autism is fantastic. We have a range of initiatives such as this. The needs in the area of autism present an opportunity and someone takes it, as it is appropriate that they should. It comes under the aegis of the health service in terms of the Co-operation and Working Together development initiative and that is fantastic. The local authority cross-Border groupings are working and delivering INTERREG programmes. However, it is only by chance, coincidence and through personal contacts that there are so many types of integration in this work.

Senator O'Rourke asked me to expand on the issue of overlapping. There is overlap, but there are also holes. There are times when things happen together and there are times when holes appear. Some of this will be addressed by the cross-Border education agency currently being established which will take the lead in such matters. However, this is working in the area of education and not in other areas. There was a time when the requirements for people who took part in cross-Border exchanges funded by the education department were different from the requirements for schools that applied under the PEACE programme. People looking for exchanges or for funding for exchanges shopped around to find the easiest option, the one with least requirements. There was obviously a preferred way of doing things, but it was not looked into. We must share all of the learning, knowledge and experiences out there. We must look for a way in which best practice can be encouraged and developed and then we must look at the overlaps and the gaps.

One of the odd attitudes in the South is that it is sometimes a bit too sensitive about pushing North-South matters. There is a worry that it will upset a political apple-cart. However, all political parties in Northern Ireland, including the Democratic Unionist Party, now support North-South co-operation, provided it is practically based and for a useful purpose. There is no opposition to this. That is one of the substantial achievements since the ceasefires. In the past ten years there is a much more positive view towards North-South co-operation.

Co-operation Ireland works with local authorities. Currently, our major work with them is a joint working group comprising the chief executives of LAMA and SOLACE, North and South. We wanted to have the priorities for North-South co-operation defined by the chief executives of the councils rather than imposing priorities on them. This morning my colleague, Mr. Gareth Casey, was on a judging panel for the Pride of Place awards which are taking place on an all-island basis. This initiative was put forward by the chief executives as something they wanted done.

Senator Mooney

Is that in competition with Tidy Towns?

Mr. Kennedy

It is not seen as being in competition. The initiative did not come from us; it came from the local authorities.

Mr. Gareth Casey

The particular emphasis of the Pride of Place awards is on active community involvement in community improvement, such as social inclusion, as well as having an environmental aspect. It is built on the community model and that is what it is seeking to promote, encourage and recognise.

Senator Mooney

As an addendum, I would like to mention the cultural dimension. The recent initiative by the FAI and, I think, the IFA regarding the establishment of an all-island club competition has taken over 20 years to come to fruition. I could paper the walls with correspondence because I am involved in the area of sport, in particular with the FAI. I have gone public several times about the need to have a close relationship between the organisations.

As Mr. Kennedy will know better than I, if ever there was a sport in Northern Ireland grounded in naked sectarianism, it is soccer. If we are to try to get the deepest, working-class areas of Belfast out of this cycle of hatred and racism, the way to do it is to have closer co-operation. Does Mr. Kennedy feel that Co-operation Ireland has a role in that regard?

The national community games movement is an all-island movement despite the fact that in the North it sadly tends to be, in some instances, only from the one community. Fortunately it is not exclusively the one community of County Down, where there is cross-community participation. Again I am involved in that. In parts of north Antrim there is also cross-community participation, but the heart of it in Belfast is not be as good as it used to be. There was a great man there, a solid Unionist, Mr. Billy Elliott. He is dead now. He was a rock in terms of trying to bring kids from working-class estates in Belfast down to places such as Mosney. Such activities worked. That is what I meant by the cultural dimension. Sport is a way through much of the sectarianism on this island.

Mr. Kennedy

I could not agree more. The other great aspect about sport is that it tends to attract young men who do not join any other type of organisation apart from paramilitary organisations. Sport can be a fantastic way of getting involved. That is why we worked hard with Linfield Football Club in Dundalk to get the Dunfield project up and going.

How can I say this politely? Whenever grants are available people try to adapt their applications to get the best for themselves without necessarily focusing on the grant. We work hard to ensure the grant is focused upon. Sport is a way of bringing young people together in order that they can build up trust in each other and be prepared to discuss honestly their differences and identities. I am not interested in having the best soccer teams on the island. I am interested in using sport for reconciliation. We had to make sure that the clubs, when they were getting money, were interested in that dimension rather than in trying to find the next Wayne Rooney. There were discussions about these matters and it worked in that way.

The structures are there to improve the co-ordination. It requires someone to be focused on how we ensure that partnership goes beyond the ‘motherhood and apple pie' approach and actually means something. The only way the idea of partnership will mean something is if people consider what we actually mean by partnership and how it will be achieved.

Senator O’Rourke

That is why I asked that question.

Mr. Casey

I believe the potential structures are there. There is a North-South Ministerial Council with good staff who are committed to North-South co-operation. They should be sitting down with the heads of the North-South units of the various departments, with people like ourselves, the centre for cross-Border co-operation, ADM, Combat Poverty, and people who are involved and deliver these services. We should be charged to state what partnership would mean and what it would look like. We have some ideas, but I accept that if these ideas are worth anything they will torn up, changed and amended.

We should also be involving the local authority groupings. The people who are experiencing these issues should be feeding into discussions and we should examine what happens.

People talk about partnership. About a year ago a researcher came up with a great description of community relations in Northern Ireland which stuck in my head. He said that community relations consists of isolated independent initiatives. That is what it is. These initiatives sometimes overlap with each other. For example, there is an initiative called the cross-Border funders forum which has Co-operation Ireland staff involved in funding economic co-operation together with InterTradeIreland and the International Fund for Ireland. Together they ensure that two grants are not given to the same group of people or that if somebody applies to a body for a grant and might be better applying elsewhere their application is referred on. That came from a discussion we had with InterTradeIreland. It did not come from a ‘let's-look-at-it-and-see-how-it-works' approach.

The reason I suggest the establishment of a working group is that the North-South Ministerial Council could be asked to take the lead in bringing together people to define what partnership really means and to come up with some ideas on the issue. Otherwise, we will continue to drift on. We will bump into each other and somebody might think I am being unfair to certain groups when I am not. It is the only way we will sort it.

Chairman

When we set up our partnership approach in 1987 it meant that people shared ideas around the table. Out of that came work in the different sectors on a partnership basis. However, you have to spell out what you are going to do and where you are going to do it, etc. That was the basis of the partnership, with people working together on it rather than working against one another, as was the case previously.

Senator Mooney

Approximately ten years ago a survey was carried out by a nun in Northern Ireland, somewhere around County Derry — or County Londonderry — I want to get my language right. My broadcasting colleague used to call it Stroke City. She came to the conclusion that the Unionists or Protestants did not get involved in voluntarism because they thought they were being drawn into a potential constitutional impasse. It was therefore better to ignore it rather than get involved.

Mr. Kennedy

I am aware of that. There a subsequent document produced around ten or 12 years ago entitled Community Participation in Protestant Areas, which dealt with Belfast in particular. The situation has changed and improved. It varies with groups. Rural Unionism is slightly more reluctant to get involved, but in working class Protestant areas of Belfast in mid-Ulster there is a much greater preparedness to get involved. One of the things that Co-operation Ireland did in the first peace programme was specifically to engage a worker to work directly with small Unionist groupings on the ground who came from that background. It was Andy Tyrie, who had previously been in the UDA, whom we engaged to work at that level in order to get over the barrier of reluctance. There has been substantial involvement, but much more needs to be done.

Senator Mooney

Is that reluctance still there when there is a North-South dimension? At least publicly I seem to get it from the top down, from the DUP and the UUP.

Mr. Kennedy

No. I think it has reduced and continues to reduce. I will give an example again if I may. There was a youth group from Kilkeel, which is a Unionist town in the Nationalist countryside, which we wanted to get involved. We wanted to take members of the group to Drogheda. They were very reluctant to do it until they were shown a press cutting of young people from the Shankill Road who had gone to Drogheda. Their response was that if the Shankill Road would try it, then they should try it too. They went to Drogheda and Seán Collins spoke to them about the battle of the Somme and about the fact that it was not just the Ulster division that died in that battle, but that men in the Irish division also died. A month later a historian was speaking to them about the Ulster division, and one of the young men from the group asked why he did not speak about the Irish division. The historian told them that the Ulster division was his speciality and that he did not know about the Irish division. The young man replied that he should visit Drogheda and speak to a friend of the group who would tell him about it.

Senator Mooney

That is one area in which there is Unionist exclusivity. Last month I visited the battlefields at Thiepval with the Connaught Rangers Association. When members of the association arrived for the 1 July commemorations, it emerged that 1 July has now merged with 12 July in the minds of many Unionists and Orangemen. It is issues such as that which will open up minds. There were many more Southern Irish, but it became a perception among Unionists that the battle of the Somme on 1 July was their battle exclusively.

Mr. Kennedy

Partnership will only mean something if we pick up on all of these issues and look to see how it is to be built. My request to the committee is that there be some kind of working group involving a range of interests, including civil society, that would draw up something that would define partnership. I propose that the leading co-ordinators of this should be the North-South Ministerial Council, which consists of dedicated civil servants.

Senator Mooney

I would be happy to propose that as an exploratory initiative from this committee.

Chairman

The request is to agree to the principle of a partnership approach and then to approach the Minister to request the establishment of a working group involving civil society, as well as to draw up a set of proposals. We would like to have some further discussion afterwards about the kind of proposals we might put. We can certainly agree to that.

I thank the delegation for appearing before us and for a very informative presentation. We would like to follow it up afterwards in some other ways. We will now be discussing EU scrutiny, which the delegation will find boring, so we can meet them afterwards outside as it will not take long.

Mr. Kennedy

Thank you very much for your time and interest.