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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Oct 2003

Vol. 1 No. 16

Arthritis Foundation of Ireland-Irish Society of Rheumatology: Presentation.

With the permission of the committee can we leave correspondence for the moment. Will the committee agree that we invite in immediately the Arthritis Foundation of Ireland to make a presentation? Agreed.

I welcome Professor Oliver Fitzgerald, Dr. Grainne Kearns, Dr. Conor McCarthy and Dr. Doug Veale of the Irish Society for Rheumatology, and Ms Mary Rose Tobin, chief executive of the Arthritis Foundation of Ireland. Members of the committee have absolute privilege. Unfortunately, this does not apply to witnesses. I remind Members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, by name, in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Professor Fitzgerald to lead the presentation.

First, on behalf of the Irish Society for Rheumatology and the Arthritis Foundation of Ireland I would like to thank you for meeting us this morning. I know the committee has met a group of rheumatologists recently, so many of the issues we wanted to highlight have been raised already. I do not want to overplay the issues by spending too much time on them. The reason we were anxious to meet the committee today was we are here as representatives of the Irish Society for Rheumatology and the Arthritis Foundation of Ireland.

The Irish Society for Rheumatology conducted a survey of rheumatology manpower in 2002, the results of which are in front of you, which highlights a serious situation for rheumatology services in the country. This particular document was sent to the Department of Health and Children. It was sent to the health board executives and from there to the various health boards and it was sent to Comhairle na nOspidéal. We did manage to meet with the Department of Health and Children at one point, at a meeting chaired by Dr. Jim Kiely. We spent an hour or so discussing the report's outcome. Dr. Kiely indicated he was going to come back to us with some suggestions as to where we would go from there. We were not getting very far, however, and at that stage we sought a meeting with the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin. We met the Minister last April and spent an hour and a half with him. He gave generously of his time and listened to the concerns we had as practising rheumatologists, trying to deliver care to the thousands of patients who are out there. He undertook to try to address the issues and particularly the emergency recommendations. While he felt it would not be possible in the budget this year, he hoped to address some of the issues in next year's budget. We were anxious to keep this issue on the boil so that it would be addressed, as these are serious issues that concern us.

I am a rheumatologist at the Mater Hospital. I was asked to prepare a document about arthritis and arthritis prevention and the role that rheumatologists might have in that prevention. There are about 100 different types of rheumatic disorder. I have listed the most common ones and the ones where preventative strategies, led by rheumatologists, would lead to a major improvement in the health of our nation. Osteoporosis is a common condition that affects females mainly. Osteoarthritis occurs in about 20% of the population. Soft tissue rheumatism is a common problem, as are sports injuries in this sporting nation. Rheumatoid arthritis and systemic lupus are fairly common, the former is a particularly common condition with a prevalence of about 1% in our population. Infection related arthritis is another condition that we occasionally see.

Our strategy to improve patient care and lead to preventative strategies has been to lobby the Government. We have worked hard at this through the manpower document and have produced significant documentation and research to show that we have some reasonable goals to achieve with regard to prevention of arthritis. The Arthritis Foundation has worked hard with the society. Our new chief executive officer is Mary Rose Tobin and this is an ideal opportunity for us as a society to push things forward with regard to both manpower and producing preventative strategies and further research.

Exercise has a major role in the prevention of arthritis. Dr. Michael Molloy is the dean of the new faculty of sports and exercise medicine. I am a member of the faculty's board and know there are plans that look at methods of preventing arthritis and promoting exercise. We have a strong and diverse group of Irish rheumatology health professionals, including nurses, occupational therapists and physiotherapists who are helping to promote arthritis care throughout the country.

Orthopaedic surgeons do a wonderful job in treating our patients but spend a lot of time talking to patients when they could be operating. There should be more of us and fewer of them and we should be allowed spend more time operating. Our patients receive quite complex treatments now. A new group of drugs, called biologic agents, take a lot of time to explain to patients. We need to spend more time with our patients because of these drugs and they have made a major impact on our treatments.

Many of us in general medicine spend time on call, unfortunately that interferes with our ability to spend time with our patients. ProfessorFitzgerald has done some work that looks at the amount of time we spend teaching undergraduate students. Unfortunately, it is a poor reflection on our impetus that we have only about 30% exposure to our undergraduate students to learning about rheumatology and arthritis. We will need to improve that in order to develop further preventative strategies.

There is a clear lack of research funding for arthritis care in general. Our preventative strategies need to improve public education through our groups and the faculty of sports and exercise medicine can help with this. We need a firm strategy for health and exercise promotion. There should be early access to rheumatology care. Many of the problems we deal with are simple and could be improved by basic understanding of the issues. Our rheumatology centres around the country need to have better facilities, particularly in areas like hydrotherapy. We need more rheumatologists and more rheumatology health professionals.

Why should we bother doing anything at all? There is clear scientific, research based evidence that demonstrates early intervention in these conditions makes a difference. For those suffering from osteoporosis, fractures can be prevented if intervention comes early enough. Osteoporosis was mentioned in the health strategy but arthritis was not. Early intervention on osteoarthritis can prevent disability. Using the new agents we have can prevent joint destruction and damage in those suffering from rheumatoid arthritis. This will clearly lead to a better outcome for patients. Many of the soft tissue problems in sports injuries may not be seen for eight or nine months. Clearly, the outcome of that type of injury will take longer to heal than if we had seen it within a couple of weeks. The condition called lupus, occasionally an aggressive condition, can cause kidney failure. Early intervention with lupus patients can prevent kidney failure and reduce the dialysis requirement. If we see patients with infection related arthritis, like septic arthritis, it is clear that early intervention will reduce the amount of damage that is caused in the joints. Promoting rheumatology care will lead to an improvement in the health, particularly the joint related health, of our population.

Dr. Grainne Kearns

I was asked to speak on rheumatology as a women's health issue. Rheumatological diseases are more common in women. Rheumatoid arthritis is three times more common in women and 90% of incidence of systemic lupus rythematosus is found in women of child bearing age. This has a huge impact both on the home and work situations. Arthritis impacts not only on the patient but also on the family members where the disability impedes the day-to-day activities of the patient - 50% of those with rheumatoid arthritis are out of work within five years.

Osteoporosis is a disease of women - 50% of women post-menopause have the disease. If one has osteoporosis, one has a 32% lifetime risk of a fracture, with minimal trauma. We all know the disability, economic impact and cost implications to hospital management caused by such an issue. Availability to rheumatology services for prevention, early management to prevent disability and keeping people functional at home and in the workplace has huge implications both for quality of life and economics. Even based on those points, it is obvious that we need increased rheumatology services throughout the country.

Dr. Doug Veale

I will address the aspect of an ageing population, which is critical in the Irish context. We know from recent evidence that one in six Irish people will develop arthritis at some stage in their lives. The highest prevalence of arthritis is in patients over the age of 50. When we asked these patients what arthritis means to them, 25% to 50% said they rated their health poorly and, more importantly, they rated their quality of life poorly. We also know from the same study that over 70% of these people will wait over a year to see a doctor. Many of them will never get to see a rheumatologist even though that is the person they should see first to receive assessment and have the management they need laid out early. As Dr. McCarthy has mentioned, they may take preventative measures at an early stage.

If we look at the census figures and the estimates for the age of the population, we will see that in 1996 approximately 60% of the population was less than 60 years of age. That will completely change over the next 25 years. While it may sound like a long time off, by 2030 it is estimated that more than 60% of the population will be over 50 years of age. By 2030, two thirds of our population will be in the age group for which arthritis is most prevalent. Although we recognise that arthritis was not mentioned in the health strategy, there was a commitment in the strategy for "sustained expansion for people with disabilities and older people". If that is clearly meant and is a genuine aspiration, there needs to be a focus on rheumatology within the health service. We can provide a service, at a relatively low cost, that will prevent a lot of disability and provide significant and realistic medical care for patients in the ageing population having a direct impact not only on their health but also on their quality of life.

The issues of health promotion, illness prevention, women's health and the ageing population and disability were highlighted in the health strategy. The Irish Society for Rheumatology set out to examine the service delivery of rheumatological services throughout the country.

I will open this part of the presentation by outlining how rheumatologists perceive the level and quality of service. If one manages to get access to the outpatient departments of hospitals, the quality of rheumatology services is excellent. However, we have the lowest consultant to population ratio in Europe, both within and without the EU. There is an inadequate infrastructure in terms of dedicated outpatient services and day care services. There is difficulty in access to support services, particularly services like radiology and MRI scanning. There are few dedicated rheumatology beds in the country, with only 104 in total of which 46 are in the rheumatology rehabilitation unit in Harold's Cross.

There is insufficient specialist nursing. A number of departments throughout the country do not have a specialist nurse in rheumatology, neither do they have dedicated physiotherapists or occupational therapists. These are the key non-medical health professional personnel who are required to deliver care to these patients. The extent of general medicine commitment was highlighted when last we met. In some units, up to 1,700 patients per annum are admitted to rheumatology services from accident and emergency departments. While these patients have non-rheumatology problems, they have to be cared for in addition to the large number of patients requiring rheumatology input. The heavy administrative load in trying to manage the service is a considerable burden.

The patients' view of the level and quality of service is that it is a good quality service - if it can be accessed. Equity of access is a major problem for patients with rheumatic diseases. There are areas of the country with no rheumatology services. The Mid-Western Health Board last week appointed its first rheumatologist. He or she has not taken up the position as of yet, but at least there is a move. There is no rheumatologist in the Midland Health Board area. The North-Eastern Health Board has just advertised for a rheumatologist-general physician; this will be the first such appointment in the area. Tallaght has no rheumatology service.

There are lengthy outpatient waiting lists and it can take up to four years to see a rheumatologist in Galway. Galway is not alone in this as things are not much better in Cork. The shortest waiting list is in Dublin and may be as low as six months in some units. The average wait is one year to 18 months. There are long waiting times and because of the large numbers of patients at outpatient clinics, some have to wait for up to five years before being seen. There are few if any dedicated beds for in-patient treatment. There is inadequate or an absence of nursing-paramedical support in some units.

These were the key findings in the manpower strategy document from which recommendations derived. We have suggested that certain emergency issues need to be addressed. Health board areas where there is no consultant rheumatologist, or regions where the consultant-population ratio is less than 0.4 per 100,000 of population, should be considered as emergencies. Consultant rheumatology posts are urgently needed in the North-Eastern Health Board, Midland Health Board, Mid-Western Health Board, Western Health Board, the Southern Health Board and the ERHA, south western region.

There is currently no paediatric rheumatology service in the country. We estimate there are approximately 700 children with arthritis in the country and general paediatricians deal with them. International evidence suggests paediatric rheumatologists are required to manage these complex patients. This service needs to be developed as a matter of urgency. We recommend the immediate appointment of two consultant paediatric rheumatologists, linked to both paediatric and rheumatology services.

As regards the allied health professions, we recommend that at least one or other of clinical rheumatology nurse practitioners, dedicated rheumatology occupational therapists and physiotherapists should be present in every rheumatology department. There are a number of posts that should be created as a matter or urgency. We need three rheumatology nurse specialists in Merlin Park Hospital in Galway, South Infirmary in Cork and Cork University Hospital. We need 2.5 whole time equivalent occupational therapists to meet the requirement of one full-time occupational therapist. We need 0.5 physiotherapists for Cork University Hospital. In addition, we suggest that the consultant posts created in the mid western, midland and north eastern health boards, as well as Tallaght, should each have a clinical nurse specialist, a dedicated occupational therapist and a dedicated physiotherapist. Members will have heard the overall recommendations on consultant provision. While we recommended one per 80,000 of population, we also indicated that with the NCHD working hours directive, a figure lower than that was likely. I am glad to hear that the Hanly report has recommended a figure of one per 50,000 of population. If this is implemented, this will be sufficient to deliver care to patients.

We recommend four paediatric rheumatology positions in the country as a whole and that each unit should have two rheumatology nurse specialists posts, three dedicated physiotherapists, two dedicated occupational therapists, a dedicated clinical psychologist, a dedicated podiatrist and a dedicated medical social worker.

As regards infrastructure, work needs to be done to deliver outpatient services, dedicated day centres and day ward facilities. As regards in-patient beds, we recommend that each unit would have dedicated rheumatology beds. The proportion we suggest is two acute beds and eight rehabilitation beds per 80,000 of population.

We have the manpower report.

I will now hand over to Mary Rose Tobin who will address the role of the Arthritis Foundation.

Ms Mary Rose Tobin

I am here to represent the Arthritis Foundation of Ireland, a national charity dedicated to improving the quality of life of arthritis sufferers, including children as young as two years old, through a programme of community care, education and research. Our organisation is built on the ethos of voluntary effort and we do not receive statutory funding, with the exception of occasional one-off grants.

The foundation is in the process of renewal and redevelopment. If members look carefully at our logo they will see that it contains a representation of an inflamed joint. Our slogan is: "Arthritis is a real pain". Arthritis is indeed a real pain for people who cannot get access to the services. In our work we attempt to nurture and support sustained inquiry into the prevention, causes and cure of arthritis. One of our aspirations is to provide seed capital for universities to establish academic departments of rheumatology and we hope to raise the money to do this in the next three to five years. We are interested in increasing research funding. We are also interested in reliably computing the number of people in Ireland directly affected by arthritis rather than using extrapolated figures as we currently do. We need to find out more about the knowledge and attitudes concerning arthritis of health professionals. We need to increase the level of awareness of the burden of arthritis among commentators, influencers and the public.

As part of our renewal and development, we are intending to commit ourselves to a constructive partnership with statutory bodies in shaping and delivering integrated public policy to reduce the burden arising from arthritis. This is not something we have done before. A major goal is to persuade the Government to publish and commence implementation of an integrated strategy for arthritis and related conditions. Any objectives that we pursue will be evidence based and we will use our research findings to inform our discussion and lobbying documents.

It is our ambition to ensure the provision of optimal supports and ancillary services to improve the quality of life for people with arthritis. We do this through our programme of education, delivery of information through our website and leaflets, and holding public lectures and information days. When we hold lectures in the so-called black holes for rheumatology services, it is astounding to meet the number of people - up to 200 in some cases - who have no access to official services and come in the hope of having a word with a rheumatologist at the end of a meeting. That may be the only contact they have either socially or clinically with those who deliver the service. This is a gap that arises from deficiencies in the public service. We are keen to address this systemically rather than continuing to provide those services.

Our major challenge is to broaden the influence and appeal of the Arthritis Foundation at a time when it is more difficult than ever to attract and retain volunteers and fund raisers. We have an important programme ahead of us.

Dr. Kearns said 50% of women post-menopause are affected by osteoporosis. Has there been a look at the economic impact of this?

Dr. Kearns

The figures we have are based on British figures as there has not been a study in Ireland that gives definite figures. It is known that 32% of these people will develop hip fractures. This mainly impacts in those aged 65 or over. Many of these people may lose their functional status and require hospital care. It has a major impact from that point of view. We do not have a study to date to show where the introduction of disphosonate therapy definitely reduces fracture incidence. We do not have an economic study of the benefits of this therapy and how much the reduction in fractures would save the economy. However, I am sure that will be available in future.

I thank the delegation for an excellent and comprehensive presentation. Certain parts of the country were talked about as being in an emergency situation. The Hanly report indicates that there are plans for doubling the number of consultants. Can the delivery of these posts be delayed until the report is delivered or must the posts be created and filled now? As regards the Hanly report, does the delegation think the consultants' contracts can be quickly agreed? Much is dependent on new contracts with consultants if changes are to be brought about. What is the delegation's read of the change that will be required of consultants? How realistic is it to say that a deal can be struck relatively quickly?

I think the circumstances are even worse than the delegation has outlined. For example, there are terrible problems regarding podiatrists and people with rheumatoid ulcers. It is desperately time consuming where patients are being treated - and it is generally inadequate treatment. Patients with Raynaud Phenomenon or scleroderma have not been mentioned. Once we formed the Reynaud's society more and more sufferers kept emerging. Does the delegation feel that there needs to be a couple of specialist centres? What can we do with these people who have these serious problems?

How come such a vociferous group appears to have been left behind and not even mentioned in the health strategy, except under a different guise? That seems extraordinary.

Deputy McManus raised questions about the addressing of the emergency recommendations ahead of the delivery of the Hanly report and the consultant contracts. I was at the Hanly launch and was very gratified to hear that the message regarding rheumatology is getting through. I do not know if any members were present but, if they were, they would have noted that whenever anybody wanted to highlight deficiencies in the service, they picked up on rheumatology.

My view on whether the emergency recommendations need to be addressed ahead of the Hanly recommendations is that they should. It will be ten years before the Hanly recommendations are implemented throughout the country. Patients are waiting for four years to access rheumatology services in places like Galway. This needs to be addressed well ahead of the Hanly report. The Hanly report will lead to the setting up of the pilot sites in the East Coast Area Health Board and the Mid-Western Health Board areas. These areas may be addressed sooner than the others but it will be a long time before all the areas are addressed. I suggest strongly that the emergency recommendations be addressed now.

What are the recommendations of Hanly vis-à-vis the extremely difficult costing involved in appointing consultants? It is estimated that every consultant costs about €2 million under the present scheme, bearing in mind the support services that have to be put in place. Is there not a real difficulty for people like Professor Fitzgerald in trying to improve a service working under the old scheme although a new one is being introduced? How does he feel he will be able to merge into the new system? He will find it difficult to have the appointments made unless there is some agreement in terms of increasing the number of consultants and reducing their support staff.

It will be a challenge to address those issues. However, rheumatologists are on the cheaper end of the spectrum in terms of consultant appointments. I am sure the figure of €2 million can be assigned to cardiothoracic surgeons and others, but rheumatology services are predominantly outpatient based. We have some need for in-patient care, as I have highlighted, but we do not have large numbers of in-patient beds. Most of what we do can be delivered at an outpatient level. We do need the support members of the team. We feel the total cost is under €1 million - probably closer to €750,000 per consultant post - if one adds in the nurse specialists, physiotherapists, occupational therapists and others I have highlighted in the document. For this money, we can deliver an excellent service.

I did not address some of the other questions that were asked, one of which concerned the consultant contract. This is likely to be a thorny issue in relation to the delivery of the Hanly recommendations. However, consultants on the ground want this change and, having been involved at one of the pilot sites at St. Vincent's Hospital, I note that the recommendations are certainly what the consultants advised Mr. Hanly to put in place. By adopting a common sense approach we will be able to implement them.

Will the delegation address the problem of Raynaud's syndrome?

Dr. Veale

We have concentrated on arthritis because most of the patients we see have arthritis. However, rheumatologists encounter a wide spectrum of diseases. Raynaud's syndrome and the connective tissue diseases present a major problem for young women in particular who are often afflicted with them at a critical time in their lives, i.e., when they are trying to work, raise a family or have a family. This is a major issue, particularly in the current economic climate. We have become much more reliant on women in the workplace.

A question was asked about the economic impact of these diseases. They have an impact even if the patient is not working. If an elderly person is affected, somebody may have to come out of employment to look after him or her, such as a daughter, another member of the family or another carer. There are major implications in respect of all these diseases on the economic aspects of society, not just on the individuals who have them. As Professor Fitzgerald mentioned, the cost is relatively small compared to that of many other areas of health. If that small cost can achieve a very specific and very large impact on the individual's quality of life and on society's economic restrictions, it is a worthwhile investment.

I thank the delegation for its presentation. Dr. McCarthy highlighted the value of exercise in preventing disease, which is obviously true. What are the effects of diet on the development of arthritis? What role have food additives - my pet aversion - in the development of this condition? From what the delegates tell us, we certainly need to invest substantially in the rheumatology service. However, I find it disturbing when they say that 70% of the over-50s wait for over a year to see a doctor and that one in six will develop arthritis. These are frightening statistics by any standards. The long-term cost implication, and that of the medium term if the truth were told, will have an astronomical effect in the delivery of health services.

Professor Fitzgerald referred to the appointment of a rheumatologist for the Midland Health Board. The committee will be very interested to know that I was part of a decision to rationalise hospital services in this board area in the mid-1980s, putting to bed the lie that health board members do not take hard decisions. However, it is very interesting to note the health board is only now getting a rheumatologist, thus proving that this is badly needed service. The delegates have not been shouting loudly enough.

Like other colleagues, I welcome the delegation. Some of the questions I was going to ask have already been asked. I am delighted to hear the delegates support the Hanly report. One of the questions that has been raised regarding it concerns whether there are sufficient people at senior age working abroad to fill the posts in the shorter term, particularly in relation to rheumatology.

Paediatric rheumatology is a new concept to me. Are those concerned paediatricians with an interest in rheumatology or rheumatologists with an interest in paediatrics?

The delegation recommended the establishment of two academic chairs. Why two? Where should they be placed?

Some rheumatologists say they enjoy the general internal medicine component. Would the delegates like to practise rheumatology only or continue practising some general medicine?

I found the presentation very stimulating and clearly presented. I am particularly interested in the issue today because, very often, delegates ask for more money and inquire into what the Government can do in terms of providing more resources. I recognise a very clear way in which the delegates can contribute to change. It emerged from the Hanly report yesterday on foot of the complaint that too much time is spent practising general medicine. A commitment clearly exists to change consultants' practices.

I am addressing the delegates in their capacity as consultants rather than rheumatologists. Are they prepared to make the changes needed to improve the services and the changes to the consultant contract? Are they prepared to do so quickly? Government cannot do so on its own. The deal is on the table and the consultants have clearly made their case. The statistics are quite alarming. Prevention is the key to any medical condition. Government has shown that it is committed to making changes but a similar commitment must be made by the consultants. I vaguely sense that they side-stepped the issue in terms of costs, bearing in mind the commitment to the changes they are prepared to make to their work practices. The delivery of services is not solely the responsibility of Government and we must do it together. Is our population more susceptible to arthritis than those of other countries? What is the age profile of those the delegates are targeting with their message? Is everybody included? It sounds as if everybody can contract arthritis. Are the UK statistics reliable when applied to the Irish population?

I welcome the delegation. I am sorry I was not present the last day it was here. I am a GP. Twenty five years ago I was a house officer to Dr. Coughlan and since then very little has changed. The same team is in existence, but with a different consultant, and it is covering so many other counties as well.

The presentation was very useful because it debunked the myth that arthritis is not fatal. It can be fatal. This shows that it was not on the agenda because it was seen as chronic rather than as being very important. The fact that 50% of those suffering from arthritis are out of work after five years is a terrible indictment of what is happening. As someone who put this issue on the agenda, with the support of my colleagues and the Chairman, I wonder what will happen regarding a unit in Mayo where there are 14,500 arthritics. The distance some of them have to travel from Mayo to the unit in Galway is the equivalent of the distance from Dublin to Galway. We need a rheumatology unit but, given the way things are progressing in terms of the Hanly report, this will not happen. Is this acceptable?

Is the four year wait for a first appointment contributing to the fact that 50% of those suffering from arthritis are out of work after five years? If treated early, their condition would not be so acute. What is the effect of a four year wait on patients who should be seen within weeks?

It is very important that people are aware of the condition, even at my age. Senator Henry pointed out that the problem has got worse. It has in some areas. In my area of north Roscommon, which is on the fringes of the Western Health Board region, we had no physiotherapist for a year and a half in a home for the elderly.

We need better facilities. Is it ideal or feasible to include a specialist hydrotherapy unit as part of the plans for building a new gymnasium or leisure centre? Unless this is done, certain areas will not have adequate facilities.

We had an Irish Society for Rheumatology meeting at the Mater Hospital last Friday. One of our physiotherapists presented a paper outlining how 60 patients with osteoarthritis were treated with either hydrotherapy or diathermy. Those who received the former treatment received a clear benefit over those who received the more traditional or standard therapy of diathermy. Hydrotherapy is an essential and critical part of treatment of patients with disabling problems, poor mobility and arthritis. As they get older and have difficulty walking, they can get into a pool and mobilise their joints. It is an essential part of any rheumatology centre or unit to have a hydrotherapy unit.

The issue of diet is difficult. It is relevant in terms of obesity and people who are overweight will get more arthritis. However, the specific role of diet in causing arthritis is not determined in that there is no reason to believe that eating dairy products or chocolate will cause different types of arthritis, although people are aware that taking high quantities of protein may lead to gout.

From a scientific point of view, there is no reason to believe that food additives and food supplements prevent arthritis or help those suffering from it. A prescription medication called Glucosamine is available in a supplement preparation but it is often combined with other agents such as chondroitin sulphate and hyaluronic acid. It is very difficult to determine whether a combination food supplement or health food product is of benefit. It would take many years to find out. The taking of food additives does not appear to have specific benefits in combating arthritis but this is not proven.

Ms Tobin

On the question of why we want two academic chairs in spite of claims that the money does not exist for one, there will be a fund raising campaign. If we raise the money for one we will be lucky, and if we get two, so much the better. The idea behind the allocation of these posts is that they be competed for. The deans of the universities' medical schools will put in proposals that will be evaluated and adjudicated. Whoever makes the best proposal will be the first to be endowed in this way, if and when we raise the money to do so.

On the age profile and the delivery of information on services, we target all age groups. We have a children's group, a children's information day and a newsletter for parents of children who have juvenile arthritis. Regarding some of the other related illnesses, we see people in their working years who are in the prime of their lives and also more elderly people with degenerative diseases in the osteoarthritis category.

Senator Feighan mentioned deficiencies in Roscommon. The four members present who are part of the manpower strategy are all from Dublin. We would highlight the problem not in Dublin but along the western seaboard. There are huge areas with no service and Roscommon is certainly one of them.

Deputy Fiona O'Malley asked about the Hanly recommendations and whether we would embrace them. I do not know what all my colleagues would say but I can speak for my colleagues at St. Vincent's Hospital, who were part of the group who met the Hanly group regularly. We are looking forward with enthusiasm to the implementation of the recommendations in our own region. Contractual issues and others have to be addressed but we are certainly very enthusiastic about the report. The Hanly group has listened to us and much of what is published——

The Professor will play his part.

We will certainly play our part.

Dr. Veale

We were consulted widely in the preparation of the Hanly report and it has emerged with many of our recommendations. This speaks for itself.

St. Vincent's Hospital has fewer submissions than Mayo General Hospital, which is to be downgraded under the Hanly report. This does not make sense.

That is a debate for another day. I will be making proposals on it.

There was a question on whether physicians or paediatricians will practise paediatric rheumatology. They will be paediatricians with a special interest in rheumatology.

Are they practising like that in the United Kingdom?

Yes. There are Irish people there who are anxious to return if they are given the opportunity.

The Deputy is correct regarding general internal medicine. Rheumatologists are listed in the Hanly report as continuing to play a role in general medicine. Most would wish to do so. One thinks of arthritis as being confined to the joints but many patients with arthritis have pulmonary and cardiac complications. We are very used to dealing with general medical problems and would like to continue to be involved in general medicine. However, the burden some units have faced in relation to the proportion of general medicine they are asked to do needs to be lessened.

Dr. Veale

Three related questions were asked on whether the Irish situation is worse than that in any other country. We have recently looked at this and there are similar figures across the European Union. It is a dreadful situation but the big difference in Ireland is that we have the worst ratio of consultants to numbers of population. It is even worse than that in Croatia. Senator Glynn made the point that if all these people come into the system there will be a huge cost, but the strategy we have laid out shows that the cost is relatively small in terms of changing their health and quality of life. Exercise costs nothing but one needs the appropriate treatment at the appropriate time. What costs money is inappropriate or ineffective treatment.

I mentioned that people have to travel a distance the equivalent of that from Dublin to Galway when travelling from parts of Mayo to Galway. Therefore, is there not a very strong case for a Mayo rheumatology unit? The Hanly report refers to super-centres, etc., but given that people wait for four years to have to get up at 3 a.m. to go to a clinic and have to wait until the next day if they need X-rays, there should be a rheumatology unit in Mayo.

I also asked the delegates' opinion on the fact that people have to wait four years when they should be seen within weeks? Is this contributing to the fact that 50% of those with rheumatoid arthritis are out of work within five years?

The Hanly report has not addressed specific recommendations on Mayo, other than for the two pilot sites.

The pilot sites are for the mid-west and Dublin and based on the idea of one main hospital or one regional hospital——

Yes. I do not want to anticipate what exactly the group will recommend regarding rheumatology services for the area around Mayo and Galway. However, I would be very surprised if it is not recommended that there be some rheumatology service in Mayo rather than none so patients do not have to travel to Galway.

We have 14,500 arthritics and there is a need for in-patient rheumatology services as well.

That is a debate for another day.

I have no doubt that the four year waiting list is contributing to disability and to people having to give up work. One has a window of opportunity during the first year of the disease but the damage begins after this. One should act early.

I promised to allow the delegation leave by 10.30 a.m. The Minister said he could not address the issues because of the economic outturn last year but said he would look at them in terms of this year's budget. Given the realities of life, what are the basic requirements in terms of input to the service given that the budget will be tight?

As I mentioned earlier, I strongly recommend that we do not simply wait for the Hanly recommendations to be implemented. We need the emergency recommendations to be addressed next year in the budget. They are listed in the document provided. They are very reasonable and, if implemented, they will allow the listed units to function. They are basic to getting the service off the floor, where it is at present.

I thank the delegation for attending. We are very much obliged to it. There has been an extremely valuable exchange of views and we are certainly far more enlightened on the issues confronting us. We will take into account the recommendations that have been made and will obviously make our own to the Minister for Health and Children.

The joint committee went into private session at 10.35 a.m. and resumed in public session at 11.05 a.m.

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