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Joint Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen díospóireacht -
Thursday, 22 Feb 2024

Petition on Justice and Marine Safety: Discussion

Next on the order of business is our engagement with Mr. C.J. Gaffney, petitioner and witness supporting petition No. P00012/23 entitled, "Justice and Safety."

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or of those who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses who give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity either by name or in such a way as to make him or her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue your remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such a direction.

Before we hear from the witnesses, I propose we publish their published statement on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. On behalf of the committee I wish to extend a warm welcome to the petitioner and the witnesses, namely, Mr. C.J. Gaffney, the petitioner; Ms Mary Bertelsen, campaigner and concerned citizen on people's rights; Mr. Jakob Pinkster, stability and ship building expert; and Mr. Justin Delaney, stability expert, who is appearing remotely. I also welcome Mr. Christopher Gaffney, who is in the Public Gallery. I suggest that the witnesses should make their opening statements for between five to ten minutes. When all the witnesses have made their opening statements, we will then have questions and comments from members. Each member will have a round of ten minutes, which should allow members to come in more than once. I now call on Mr. C.J. Gaffney to make his opening statement. Perhaps he will introduce the next witness when he has completed his statement.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

I hank the Chairman and the committee for this opportunity to speak today. My family has been involved in fishing over many generations. My father in the Gallery recently received an award for 60 years of service to the Arklow lifeboat and my brother is currently carrying on that tradition also. On 2 July 2007, we purchased a German fishing vessel, Edward John. The vessel was Dutch designed, built and owned but registered under the German flag. The vessel was still fishing and had all up-to-date German paperwork with all copies of her two-year interval German surveys and sailing permits. The stability book was stamped and approved by the Germanischer Lloyd Classification Society and the German marine survey office. All this paperwork was accepted and approved by the Marine Survey Office, MSO, and she was accepted onto the Irish registry as Mary Kate, WD-30.

From the beginning we did not have a safe feeling in the vessel, something we never experienced in our former older beam trawler. We nearly capsized on a couple of occasions. We notified the Marine Survey Office and agreed that the vessel should be stability-tested as soon as possible. On 26 May 2009, we carried out our first stability test, which was done by our naval architect and witnessed by the Marine Survey Office. The results were devastating but not surprising. On 2 October 2009, we had a meeting with our solicitor and our insurance company. It was confirmed that we were not insured for a design mistake or a latent defect, which the vessel was proven to have had.

Many stability tests and surveys were carried out by many experts in their field and they all arrived at the same conclusion, that the vessel was highly dangerous from day one, could never have met its EU stability criteria and should never have been certified by Germanischer Lloyd and the German Marine Survey Office.

The vessel cost us a considerable amount to purchase and license. We were left with two options: to scrap the vessel or to have her lengthened by 5.85 metres, a massive increase of over 20% of her original length. We took the second option as it was the only sensible option left to us. After she was lengthened and fixed, several buyers from the UK were extremely interested in buying her as she was now a fabulous boat in fantastic condition and all her paperwork was up-to-date, but the Maritime and Coast Guard Agency, MCA, the UK equivalent of the MSO, would under no circumstances allow any of the interested parties to import the vessel to the UK. We had to voluntarily surrender the vessel and licence to the bank which resulted in a forced fire sale. Even after the sale, we still owe the bank a massive amount. Since then, it has also looked as though two family homes would be repossessed.

We have been told that we are time barred in the Netherlands and Germany, which has stopped us taking a case against Germanischer Lloyd and the German Marine Survey Office. In January 2011, we travelled to Brussels to give a presentation to the Directorate General for Maritime Affairs and Fisheries. All in attendance were visibly shocked at the content of our presentation, which was backed up with impartial professional evidence that the Mary Kate contained 20 tons of unaccounted steel from new build. We also gave evidence about a second German sister vessel with the same stability failures. The directorate undertook to inform the EU countries where the sister vessels to the Mary Kate were registered. The European maritime directorate said it cannot compensate an individual as it can only deal with countries, but that Ireland could compensate us out of the European Fisheries Fund and if Ireland's allocation had already been used, Ireland could submit our case and because of its unique circumstances, it would be approved. We pursued this possibility at every level, with letters of support from MEPs and TDs, but again our request was shot down by the Departments of Transport and Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

In 2014 we commenced legal proceedings in the High Court against the German Marine Survey Office and Germanischer Lloyd to get jurisdiction for the case to be held in Ireland. It took until 12 November 2015 for a ruling to be made that Ireland did not have jurisdiction and in the judge's opinion, we should take a case in either the Netherlands or Germany. This is a quote from a letter the EU wrote to Seán Kelly MEP:

In terms of addressing the loss Mr Gaffney has suffered, on a previous occasion the possibility was outlined that the case might be addressed through the European Fisheries Fund, but this was a decision for the Irish Authorities as they oversee the allocation of such funding. The Commission could not instruct them in this regard.

The Commission also said this to us at our Brussels meeting in 2011, and if Ireland had acted upon it, we would not have been put through this living hell. Ireland has never made such a submission. Seán Kelly MEP and nine other MEPs wrote a joint letter to the Taoiseach and the Minister for the marine stating:

The Commission has made it clear on several occasions that Mr Gaffney’s case can be exceptionally addressed through the European Fund for Maritime and Fisheries. At this stage the matter has been unresolved for 15 years and it does not reflect well on the Government that this case remains when a clear remedy is available.

A previous Minister for the marine told us that if they helped us, they would have to help everyone and it would open the floodgates. Ours is the only ever Irish case like this. It is unique - a one-off - and should be treated as such. The Department with responsibility for fisheries and the current Minister referred to our case as a failed private commercial transaction. I have never missed any payments on this or any of my previous vessels. A failed private commercial transaction is buying a restaurant and getting no bookings. It is nothing remotely like what has happened to us.

As members will see, this case has many similarities to the mica saga and has caused as much devastation and hurt, also through no fault of our own. From the very first day, we have been treated abysmally by the Department of the marine and the Department of Transport. Every proposal we have put forward has been turned down and not once has any help or support in any shape or form been forthcoming. We have lost our livelihood, career and way of life, all our savings, our substantial family investment and our family´s heritage. Our mental health has suffered and continues to suffer and personal relationships have been severed beyond repair. I would not wish the never-ending stress and worry on anyone. It is a real struggle to carry on and impossible to turn off, with this nightmare constantly on our minds.

I was a successful fisherman, providing for my family and creating local employment, with a real sense of pride and achievement. I climbed the ladder from being an apprentice deckhand at 15 years old to owning and skippering a state-of-the-art vessel by the age of 37, which took huge sacrifices and hard work to achieve. The Mary Kate was the last trawler in Arklow and was a huge source of pride for the whole town. In the blink of an eye, this all changed and I was left with nothing. I was thrust into an alien world I knew nothing about. With no income and with the social welfare office stating I was not entitled to anything as the director of a company, I had to live off savings and rely on family handouts. I was instructed by our bank to visit the vessel daily to keep its machinery running and in good working order and to keep a log. This went on for years. I also had to deal with the bank, surveyors, naval architects, councillors, TDs, MEPs, Ministers, Brussels, insurance companies and journalists, do radio interviews and deal with lawyers in Germany, the Netherlands and Ireland, including senior counsel and other barristers, the MSO, shipyards and Departments, sometimes all in the same week. It was overwhelming and I do not know how, as a family, we managed to cope. I would like committee members to really think for a minute about the stress, turmoil and mental fatigue we suffered, while being told we had zero rights, and all this through no fault of our own.

There are no current EU directives to cover this size of vessel, either customer protection or vessel safety. Article 47 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights deals with the right to an effective remedy and a fair trial as follows:

Everyone whose rights and freedoms guaranteed by the law of the Union are violated has the right to an effective remedy before a tribunal in compliance with the conditions laid down in this Article.

Everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal previously established by law. Everyone shall have the possibility of being advised, defended and represented.

Legal aid shall be made available to those who lack sufficient resources in so far as such aid is necessary to ensure effective access to justice.

We were denied these rights because we were time-barred in both the Netherlands and Germany and the Irish High Court ruled Ireland had no jurisdiction and awarded substantial costs against me. As members will see, we have no rights anywhere or support, even as Irish and EU citizens. This is unbelievable in 2024. Without a shadow of a doubt, this is a miscarriage of justice and it should have been pursued vigorously by the Department of Foreign Affairs, the Department of the marine and the Department of Transport until a satisfactory solution was found.

We hope the committee will rule in favour of recognition and compensation, as the EU did - it would be at no cost to the Irish taxpayer - so that we can at last get on with our lives. We also ask that an investigation be carried out, including of the existing sister ships, the findings of which should be shared with the EU, the Netherlands and Germany so lessons can be learned to stop this from ever happening again. Health and safety should always be paramount when fishermen’s lives or those of anyone else are at risk. We have been to many committees and have met many people and have always come up against a brick wall. We are praying that today will finally be the opening for the beginning of the end. I thank the committee for the opportunity.

Do any of the other witnesses wish to speak before we go to members' questions?

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

It might be good if the witnesses could introduce themselves so members might know who to direct questions to.

Ms Mary Bertelsen

I worked in the House for more than 15 years as a secretarial assistant and as a parliamentary assistant with former Fine Gael Deputy Andrew Doyle. Around 2016 he gave me a folder. I happened to mention that when I was young I had gone off to sea and had travelled the world working on ships. With that, he took out a huge folder and told me to read it. It took me about three nights to read the story of the Gaffney family and the Mary Kate. An integral part of the job description of a parliamentary assistant or secretarial assistant working for a politician is to have empathy. We have to be able to interpret the constituents' representations and figure out a way to act to help the person or to be seen to help the person.

I met with Mr. Christopher Gaffney and Mr. C.J. Gaffney and I found the representation complicated initially. The more I spoke with them, the more I realised that they were genuine hard-working people. Mr. C.J. Gaffney explained to me all the roads that they went down. When I was with the Deputy, I started all over again so that I could get a clear grip of everything. I discovered that all of these institutions that we believe are there to protect us as citizens seriously failed this family, both at national and EU level. It is unbelievable that there are so many strands to this case.

Mr. Gaffney has already mentioned that from a business perspective, the family bought and sold six or seven fishing boats over a long period of time and they were well respected. Their financial institution had no problem advancing money for the various purchases over many years because they had good credit and they came from good business acumen. At one stage, on a Zoom meeting a few years ago with the department of agriculture, it was insinuated that this was a failed business transaction and it most certainly was not. They had an exemplary credit relationship over many years with their bank.

The Gaffney family fell between the cracks in the system. The boat was just under 24 m long. If the boat was over 24 m long, there would have been EU legislation that would have given some recourse or protection to the family. While they had the requisite insurance, when this issue arose the insurance company claimed that there was a latent defect. There are a whole lot of strands attached to it. After I finished working with Deputy Doyle and even when I retired from the Houses of the Oireachtas, I stuck with the family because it is something I feel passionate about. Mr. Gaffney has already stated that we have written to the European Ombudsman as well as the Ombudsman here. We drafted letters, parliamentary questions and Adjournment debate matters. We followed up with the Irish MEPs, who I must say have been sympathetic. We drafted motions with Wicklow County Council. A few years ago, we put a website together telling the story of the Mary Kate. We put up a petition as an attachment to that website.

There are no words that can describe the magnitude of their financial loss and the suffering they have had to endure over the last number of years, which is of equal importance. They have lost the boat, their fishing licence and their fishing quota. They come from a five-generation family with a proud maritime history. They have lost the shirts off their backs. Mr. Gaffney recently received an award from the Royal National Lifeboat Institution for 60 years of voluntary service to the RNLI. These people are not fly-by-nights; they are genuine people. They are shrewd business people but the systems, somewhere along the line, failed them catastrophically.

Mr. Jakob Pinkster

I apologise as I have a bit of a cold and my voice is not great.

I graduated as a naval architect from Delft University of Technology with a masters degree. I worked in shipbuilding first of all at a ship owner's company and later on I worked in the shipyards. After that, I taught in Delft University of Technology on ship design and stability. As a ship builder, I also had a fair amount of experience with stability.

I was introduced to the Gaffney family when they had the misfortune of discovering in 2007 that the Mary Kate did not pass our stability criteria. It failed an inclining test. Mr. C.J. Gaffney, who was the skipper of the vessel, did not feel safe on the ship as soon as they bought it and felt something was not right. The cleverness to turn around and say something might be wrong with the stability of the vessel shows that he is a good skipper who takes care of his family and crew on board and does not put them through any unnecessary danger. Fishing is dangerous but one wishes to do it on a good ship. He realised he did not have that and that is why he had the test done. I was asked to help him with this problem around the stability of the ship. Along with Mr. Delaney, who was a naval architect and did a large part of the number crunching and calculations, we came to the conclusion that the ship was wrong from day one. This means it was delivered with the weight and the centre of gravity being too high. Therefore, the boat did not pass stability criteria. A boat should pass in order to be found to be suitable to operate in a seaworthy way.

I think this is no reflection on the Gaffney family. They bought a going concern which was sailing at the time. They did nothing wrong. They got the business end of it perfect and they were just the unlucky ones who discovered this problem. As far as I am concerned, they were not assisted properly by a lot of authorities after the issue was discovered. I will leave it at that and I will wait for any questions.

Does Mr. Delaney wish to say a few words before questions are asked?

Mr. Justin Delaney

As Mr. Pinkster stated, I was the first naval architect who did the stability test on the Mary Kate in May 2009. Mr. C.J. Gaffney did not feel safe on the vessel. It nearly capsized on a couple of occasions. To make clear, the Mary Kate was a state-of-the-art vessel; it was a more modern version of Mr. Gaffney's previous, older beam trawler. He never had any worries stability-wise so this was a big shock to Mr. Gaffney. I carried out the inclining test with a surveyor from the MSO as a witness. The results were shocking to everybody because this was a state-of-the-art beam trawler which came from Germany with all the certifications from a renowned classification society, Germanischer Lloyd Classification Society, and from the German marine survey office. The vessel was so far out that we went to every extreme to try to understand why the boat was so wrong. We even thought that we must have made a mistake in the first test. We did follow-up tests. Mr. Gaffney contacted the Dutch designer of the boat. The designer told him that perhaps there was trapped water underneath the fishing hold that could explain the weight increase. Mr. Gaffney and his crew then spent 16 hours, for over a month, gutting the whole fishing hold. They took out 21.8 tonnes. After that, the vessel was similar to what was supposedly stated in the German stability booklet. Of course, the vessel was even worse stability wise. We knew then that something was wrong from the beginning. In the same year, 2009, its German sister vessel, Destiny, had changed ownership and undergone a stability test and it was also found to have had the same stability failings. The Mary Kate alone was enough to ring the alarm bells but now we had two vessels. At the time, we were thinking that there was going to be a huge EU investigation. It was bound to happen. If one thinks of the car industry, if there is a problem with a series of cars, what do they do? They recall all the cars. An investigation had to happen. Yet we are still here in 2024.

I have written countless letters through the years to German ministers and the Dutch Safety Board, which carried out a report on two lost Dutch beam trawlers. I tried to get it to include the story of the Mary Kate. Just two weeks ago, I wrote a letter to the Netherlands Shipping Inspectorate because, during recent research, we identified another Dutch sister vessel to the Mary Kate that we suspect is also one of the incorrect sister ships. There were 11 sister vessels built and three of them have been lengthened like the Mary Kate. This is not a mistake that somebody could make when they were built. This is something more serious. There is no other way of looking at it - these vessels were given stability booklets and information that was not correct. The same information was taken from the other correct sister vessels and it was said, "Okay, here you go. Nobody will know." It was passed like that. The issue only came to light when Mr. Gaffney began to operate the Mary Kate. The North Sea, where the other sister vessels operate, is less forgiving than the Irish Sea, for example, which is flat. There are peaks and troughs in the Irish Sea. For beam trawling, it is normal for the ear to sometimes get caught on the bottom. It was only when Mr. Gaffney started operating the Mary Kate that true stability deficiencies became apparent. This is how it all came about.

I am totally shocked that an official EU investigation still has not happened. Other vessels are operating that are putting their crews at risk, especially for beam trawlers, which engage in the most dangerous type of fishing. If there are beam trawlers that should not be operating because they have been deficient from day one, how does that look going forward? This is a huge case in terms of maritime safety and justice for the Gaffneys. This should have been resolved in 2010 when it all came about. I hope members can all understand the suffering the Gaffneys have gone through and the ramifications this case will have for maritime safety. I hope the Gaffneys can finally get compensation to move on with their lives. In the meantime, an EU investigation can happen. I have all the information. We can learn from this and make sure it never happens again.

I assure the witnesses that the committee will try to do as much as we can to move Mr. Gaffney's case forward. It is scandalous that there has not been some resolution over that period of time. People's lives are at risk when they go to sea. Health and safety must be a high priority.

Mr. Delaney touched on this. How did the Dutch and Germans keep passing that type of boat as safe, and keep giving it licences and so on, when they seemed to know something was significantly wrong? Will the witnesses give some explanation for it?

Mr. Jakob Pinkster

I am a Dutchman and also a naval architect. I am very ashamed of what has probably happened. It looks like the stability books are not correct. I cannot understand who would do something like that. I can understand why they might be incorrect in that some people think that if they make a mistake and do not own up to it, they will not have to pay any money. If there is a design fault in a ship, it has to be fixed and that costs a lot of money. Maybe that was the incentive, if the books are incorrect, which I think they are. I certainly cannot say that I know this was done on purpose, but it is not right anyway. That is one thing I know. I hope that answers the question.

Are those kind of books given by an independent entity or from a department?

Mr. Jakob Pinkster

No. The inclination test we are talking about is for a ship that has just been built. Part of the protocol for acceptance of the ship is to get a certificate of seaworthiness. The stability book is an important part of that. It is a record of how the ship is, once she is built, as far as stability is concerned. The stability of the vessel is then tested against certain criteria which must be fulfilled. If the criteria are fulfilled, then automatically the ship is okay as far as stability is concerned. If it is correct as far as other things are concerned, then the certificate of seaworthiness is allocated to the ship and she can go to sea. If the stability book does not pass the criteria, then there is a problem. If the criteria are not met, generally speaking, the shipbuilder would then offer the stability book to the authorities, which have to state whether or not it is okay. If it is not okay, then the shipbuilder does not get the certificate. That is the main thing. I hope I answered the question.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

I am showing the Chair the stability book when the ship was built, which is stamped with the classification. That book is law and is accepted all over the world. The ship is bought and sold on that. These are absolute experts and the people to make sure that everything is right for ordinary people like me. That is the protection we should have.

Mr. Justin Delaney

I will add one thing to what Mr. Pinkster said. When the ship is built in the shipyard, if it is built with a construction mistake and the stability did not pass the suitable criteria, the shipowner for whom the ship was being built has every right to refuse the vessel. The shipyard would be stuck with the ship at a huge loss. In this case, as there were 11 sister vessels, and we have more or less proven that seven of them were constructed right, while the remaining four were wrong, we can see why it went down this path and just gave stability booklets for the four incorrect vessels with similar information as the seven correct ones. However, if anybody does any research into them, it can be seen, even from photos of the four incorrect vessels, that they look totally different from the seven correct ones. They are much heavier in the water and just look different. They were built incorrectly with too much weight. It does not take a lot of investigation to come up with this. It has already been proven.

Mr. Gaffney and his delegation are very welcome. I have seen many presentations at Oireachtas committees over the past ten years. I have never seen so much misery in four pages. I cannot begin to understand how Mr. Gaffney must feel. I lost a business 30- or 40-odd years ago, but I was able to turn the page and move on. There is no page to turn here. What he is coping with is horrendous.

I could ask Mr. Gaffney lots of questions about why this was not picked up when he sailed her from Germany back to Ireland. I could ask lots of questions like that, but I do not propose to do that.

A previous Minister said that if we opened the door to this, we would open the floodgates. That is never an excuse not to do the right thing at the right time. I want to propose this to the committee. It is my view that we should ask the Irish State to deal with Mr. Gaffney first and deal with Europe second. He cannot continue to fight City Hall. It was a phenomenal achievement for a guy who started at 15 and finished up as the skipper of a ship that cost millions of euro. He deserves the backing of this committee and the backing of the country because we need people like him. I am asking the committee to make a recommendation to the Department of Transport to compensate this man. The Irish State should take up the safety issues.

This brings me on to the two ship architects who are here. Based on what Mr. Delaney said, the company manufactured the first of the 11 vessels, did the stability tests on it, created a stability book and that was it. It just replicated that across the board but never really carried out proper safety tests on them. I ask Mr. Delaney to give a marine architect's point of view. Is it possible, for example, to have a stability certificate for the Mediterranean which would not necessarily apply to the Irish Sea? The Irish Sea can be a pretty horrible place. I sailed across it many times as a young man. When there is bad weather on the Irish Sea it can be really bad weather. It and the Bay of Biscay are probably the two worst. Is it possible that those ships are perfectly serviceable in one geographic location and totally unsuitable in another?

Mr. Justin Delaney

For stability works for fishing vessels, the criteria they must pass relate to the different loading conditions of the vessels when they are fishing. Mr. Gaffney would not have picked this up while he sailed the vessel home from Holland because he was not fishing the vessel. These beam trawlers have two big heavy nets that they throw from each side of the vessel. When they lift up the gear, the gear is so heavy that sometimes one set of gear can roll over to the other side of the vessel. That is why these beam trawlers need more stability than any other type of fishing vessel. The Bay of Biscay and the North Sea can be very unforgiving also. For vessels working in the Irish Sea, beam trawlers especially, when the gear gets caught on the bottom that is when we see how unstable a vessel will be. Even a stable vessel can become very unstable due to what happens during the operation. It is unforgivable to let a vessel, especially a beam trawler that has been supposedly passed as seaworthy but has totally deficient stability, go out into the world for fishermen to operate.

The beam trawler swings two beams out, port and starboard, and the net is dragged behind that.

Mr. Justin Delaney

Right.

When lifting, there could be different weights on each side.

Mr. Justin Delaney

When the gear is lifted up from the surface of the water, because it is a suspended load, the weight of the gear acts from the top of the derricks which is very high up. This is why beam trawlers are the most dangerous type of fishing vessel and why they need the most stability of all fishing vessels. This really highlights how unbelievable it was that this case was allowed to happen.

Deputy Buckley took the Chair.

I just want to return to Mr. Gaffney for a minute. How long after he purchased the ship, did he notice there were stability problems?

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

It would only be in certain conditions. I could fish for two months and not face those conditions and it would be fine. Then that certain condition would happen again and I would become aware. During the Angelus just before the news, you can see someone with a beam trawler; he is my best friend. His vessel was virtually the same but had a different designer. I let him know that this was happening and he said it could not be the case. She nearly capsized on two occasions. On one occasion the water was on the deck and she seemed absolutely gone; I do not know how she came back. It was from day one really. As I said, it was not all the time. It was only when a certain condition happened that I thought, "Oh my God, this is dangerous."

How many crew did Mr. Gaffney have on board?

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

There were four altogether.

How many ships has he had in his career?

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

I think that was our seventh one. The previous one before this was a beam trawler we bought in Holland and was six years old. This is a far more modern state-of-the-art trawler. The last trawler was smaller and did not have the same towing power. We used to fish out of Newlyn and Penzance in Cornwall all the time. This was much deeper. Her stern was covered in, so the cabins were on the deck; they were not down below. There were a load of safety features and it also provided greater comfort. That is why we went from one to the other. They were the same size. We had previous experience and this was not our-----

If Mr. Gaffney got this sorted out, would he get back his quota and his fishing licence?

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

No. That is all gone. When the boat went, the licence was repossessed with it.

Councillor Leonard and Councillor Joe Behan have both been on to me about Mr. Gaffney's case for a few weeks. Does this mean his career in fishing is over?

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

Yes.

I presume he still stands several million euro in the red.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

Yes. I had to sign a confidential contract with the bank. I am out substantially, and the family as well. We were 60:40 with the bank. Therefore, it was really all our money that went. All my savings went as well. For a couple of years, it looked like the two family homes would go on top of this.

I need to go to another meeting. I support this family 100%. This is too big an issue for a family to fight and the State should step in. The Department of Transport is not the easiest in the world to deal with, based on my personal experience. I am sure Deputy Brady will have far more questions to ask Mr. Gaffney. I really wish him well and I am very sorry he finds himself in this situation. He is a brave man to come in here and face this place. It is not an easy place to face at the best of times. My heart goes out to Mr. Gaffney. I know what it is like; I lost my home when I lost my business. I really feel for him. Take it handy.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

That is especially true when it is a mistake. If I did not earn the money and could not make repayments or something like that, it would be fair enough. However, it was just taken off me and was gone. Within a matter of a day, I went from being fine down to the bottom.

Mr. Gaffney put the safety of its crew above everything else.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

I can stand over that. Looking back, I did not know what to do because it was all new. I think what we did was definitely right no matter what hardship resulted from it.

Mr. Gaffney has good people around him.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

Very good, the best.

I wish him the very best of luck. If I am needed for a vote here, I can come back. I will be in the Seanad for the next couple of hours.

I welcome Mr. Gaffney, his dad and the rest of the witnesses here this afternoon. I know Mr. Gaffney and his dad. I have been trying to push this case in recent years. In the last line of his opening statement, he said that we were the last chance of ending this nightmare. That sums it up. It has been a nightmare personally for the whole family. I know the personal toll it has had in recent years. It is highly frustrating because a solution is being offered to this whole saga and I will come to that in a couple of minutes.

Senator Craughwell outlined the core issues here. I wish to home in on a couple of points there. All the paperwork had been signed off.

The German Marine Survey Office, MSO, had done all the paperwork that was there. Mr. Pinkster outlined the process that was in place around the sister ships. Perhaps we could get a little bit more information about the time when a ship is built before that certification is done. Will Mr. Pinkster paint the picture of what exactly a ship has to go through before that? Are individual tests carried out on all of the ships? This trawler had an additional 20 tonnes and at what point should that be picked up in that process?

Mr. Jakob Pinkster

Sure. I will be pleased to do that. When designing a vessel one makes the best calculations one can especially with regard to the light ship weight, which means the ship's weight without any cargo, fuel or consumables on board like that. The designers make the best estimation they can about these weights. It is very important to get that right. The plan of the ship is made so that we know more or less where the centres of gravity are for all the weights. One gets the total weight and the centre of gravity of the whole thing. This is what is calculated. Then the calculation is made on the form of the ship to calculate what the stability of the ship will be with weights and the ship form. This is to make sure that when the ship inclines she comes back again into the upright position. That is stability and that is what we want. The ship's designer makes the calculations and as a naval architect he or she would make sure that the stability is good at this stage. Then the plans are made for construction of the ship and the ship is constructed in the shipyard. This is where the real material comes into it. The ship gets built. Steel plates are put in place with frames, girders and angle bars put on board and all the other systems to make this ship properly. Then once it is finished the ship goes out of the shipyard and that is when we do the inclination test for the stability test. We are looking for a number of things in the stability test. Number one is the displacement and the weight of the ship. The weight of the ship has only been calculated on paper so far. We do the inclination test, we check out the draught of the vessel, and we look at the displacement of the vessel, and then we can say what the weight is. This is number one. At this stage one can say "It is spot on" or "There is a difference". If there is a difference then we should be alarmed. Number two also arises from the inclination test where we are able to find out the centre of gravity of the ship, which is very important for the stability. If the centre of gravity in the height and in the length of the ship is wrong then it is also a reason to be alarmed.

The 20 tonnes seems a huge weight not to be picked up in that process. If that process was carried out as Mr. Pinkster laid out, would he be surprised that such additional tonnage was not identified in that process?

Mr. Jakob Pinkster

Yes. It should have been spotted straight away.

It should have been and it was not.

Mr. Jakob Pinkster

It should have been spotted. That is right. Two things should have been spotted: No. 1 was the weight and the weight difference; and No. 2 was the centre of gravity position.

None of that, so there was a major failure at that point.

Mr. Jakob Pinkster

Yes.

We know that of 11 ships in total there were issues with three or four of the ships. I am not asking Mr. Pinkster to say there was an inherent failure in that process, and I am not sure as to whether there was fraud going on with regard to the body overseeing the process. I am not asking the witness to comment on that. If that process was carried out as Mr. Pinkster laid out and it was not picked up then was the process actually adhered to? What safeguards are there to ensure that every ship actually goes through that process?

Mr. Jakob Pinkster

That is a good question. I will elaborate on the inclination test again. To get the weight spot on is very difficult. To get the centre of gravity spot on is very difficult. As a designer one generally has a certain spare or reserve weight, which allows the design to not get into trouble if the weight is a little bit too much or if the centre of gravity is a bit too different. If it is and if this results in stability problems then there is a problem.

In answer to the Deputy's question I will explain who is there for the inclination test. There are three representatives there: the ship builders who wants to check the ship they are delivering; the ship designer might be there - it is not always the ship builder sometimes it is the ship designer - and the designer wants to know if the design is right; and the shipowner is there or the owner's representatives because they want to know what the owner is getting. There is also somebody from the Marine Survey Office, MSO, in order to check it out and that it is being done properly because they are the ones who are going to put the okay stamp on it. It is a maximum of four parties who are interested; they do not all have to be there but I would say the MSO guy especially, the shipyard representative, and ship owner probably too.

I thank Mr. Pinkster for that. If the process was adhered to properly this should have been picked up at that stage.

Mr. Jakob Pinkster

Yes.

It raises serious questions of a potentially fraudulent system where the proper safeguards are not being followed or adhered to. That needs further investigation, if it has not been investigated, by the police force in the relevant authority.

Mr. Gaffney mentioned a couple of times that he felt at risk, that the Mary Kate was going to capsize. He mentioned some of the detail. Perhaps Mr. Gaffney will paint a picture around that. Given his experience, with his family's years of seafaring experience, and with his dad's 60 year's experience in the RNLI, this is not something Mr. Gaffney took up on a whim. There are years of experience on seven ships. It is a huge volume of experience. Given those scenarios where Mr. Gaffney felt that risk, does this situation stand out from his previous experiences on all the other ships and boats he worked on?

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

Yes, and especially because when we went from the old Mary Kate to the new Mary Kate we kept the same size fishing nets. We did not go bigger on any. When we were towing the gear along the bottom, and even when we were turning - say we wanted to turn around to come back to where we thought the fish were - she would lay over an awful lot. There would be water on the deck. If the derrick on one side was out a bit further she just seemed to lay over a lot more. In a sea she seemed very rigid. She was great and comfortable that way but if we were turning in a big sea the others would be all over the place and getting thrown around while this one was like a submarine. The water would come in and back out again. Nothing felt right. It is hard to put a finger on it but drawing on our own experience over the years it did not feel right and it was not.

It was not and we know subsequently the inherent ages.

The Gaffney family have been through an exhaustive process with the political lobbying, the courts and all of that. I wish to ask about the lobbying here in this State. The EU Commission has put a solution on the table indicating a fund that could be utilised potentially to compensate and mitigate this. Mr. Gaffney has met many politicians over the years and with political leaders. Will the witness talk to us about some of that engagement?

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

Everyone is shocked. No one has ever questioned that we are wrong or anything like that, or look for the paperwork. Everyone is visibly shocked and usually the response right away is "That is not right, we will have to do something about it", but then it just seems to fade away.

When I think of some of the things said and done by senior civil servants, we were not treated right at all. We once met two civil servants from the Department of fisheries with the Minister for Foreign Affairs. He said he was from the Department of Foreign Affairs and that the situation had gone on long enough. He said he would call for a meeting of the Departments of Foreign Affairs, Transport and fisheries, sit everyone down the following week and go through the situation and find a solution. Those civil servants said we had our meeting and that they would not be attending any more meetings. The Minister told them they could not leave and instructed them to stay. They walked out and that was the end of it.

The Minister for Transport then organised a meeting in the Marine Survey Office with the two senior surveyors. The Minister for Foreign Affairs attended. The surveyors said they were going to get on board. They said the situation was madness and the case had to go to Europe. They said they would get on board. At that time, I had a meeting with the director of fisheries. The civil servants said they would visit the vessel the following week, do a full report and get behind us. We were told things would be ready for us to go to Brussels. I said that was grand and asked the if they would attend the meeting in Brussels. They said no because it was a matter for fisheries and they were with the Department of Transport but that if we ever got a meeting with representatives of the Department of Transport, they would, of course, come to Brussels with us. They never did the survey or produced any of the paperwork. When I did get a meeting with representatives of the Department of Transport, they refused to go. They are now coming back and saying they were paramount and proactive in all of this. The vessel was tested in May 2009. The Marine Survey Office eventually wrote a letter to the Committee on Safe Seas in Brussels, stating that we in Ireland have a problem. However, it provided no evidence. It was 2013 that they did that and the problem with the vessel dated from 2009.

Another two beam trawlers were lost in Holland. It did an interim report, went straight to the European Union and said there was a problem with the beam trawlers of less than 24 m. We got word of that and went to the Marine Survey Office and the Department of Transport to try to get involved with that case and send all the information. That took a long time. Eventually, Deputy Whitmore submitted a parliamentary question asking the Department to get involved. It was only then a letter was written stating the Department was there and could help. However, it never said anything about the Mary Kate. It never sent any evidence or anything like that. The time it said it would help was a month before it was published so nothing was ever going to happen.

I share Mr. Gaffney's frustration. Politicians have also failed him in this process. He is frustrated at being kicked between the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Department of Transport. I have raised this issue with both Ministers, Deputies McConalogue and Eamon Ryan. Both Departments keep kicking the issue back to the other and no one is taking responsibility.

I know that a potential solution has been put on the table. In his opening statement, Mr. Gaffney quoted a letter the EU wrote to Sean Kelly MEP, stating that "in terms of addressing the loss Mr Gaffney has suffered, on a previous occasion the possibility was outlined that the case might be addressed through the European Fisheries Fund", but that is something the EU cannot initiate and it is up to the member state. It is up to the Irish Government to initiate that process. Perhaps Mr. Gaffney would talk us through whatever feedback he has had about initiating that process.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

They are saying there is no mechanism but the answer is that this has never happened before so of course there is no mechanism. Because the vessel was under 24 m, she comes under national and not international law and that is why Brussels could not do anything. I have to say that the representatives of the EU in Brussels were fantastic. They always write back. They invited us over. They wrote to the Germans, English and Dutch to warn them about this issue. They wrote letters to Germanischer Lloyd. They went above and beyond what they could do. When we went to them, they were absolutely shocked and that was when the offer of compensation came across. They could not fix it but said the offer of compensation was made because the situation was just not right. That was happening in 2009. The Deputy has probably seen the letters I have forwarded to the committee from the European Union to Sean Kelly MEP and from him to the Government and what they stated. I also have letters from Europe to the Marine Survey Office criticising that it has not become involved. Everything I say can be backed up and is factual. It can be backed up not only by me but also by Brussels.

I will make a final comment. It all adds to the frustration. I have been dealing with this issue and I know Deputy Whitmore has too over recent years. I had hoped there would be a collective approach from the five TDs in Wicklow.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

Yes.

I initiated a process in the past year to try to pull together the five TDs to push this solution on the Government, given that we have two senior Ministers in the county. Unfortunately, only Deputy Whitmore came back to me and none of the other three even acknowledged my attempt to pull together the five TDs. I sense the frustration. The issue is being kicked to touch and being kicked between the two Departments. I agree with the recommendations made by Senator Craughwell and what Mr. Gaffney has recommended. As a non-committee member, I suggest the committee writes directly to the Taoiseach and asks him to intervene directly on this issue because we cannot leave it to the Ministers who are passing it between each other. Perhaps the committee would consider writing to the Taoiseach asking him to take on the issue to cut through the nonsense and red tape and to seize this matter. This is not a case that will open a Pandora's box. It is a one-off case. The solution is there and it is up to the Government to seize the opportunity to end the nightmare for the Gaffney family. I ask the committee to consider writing directly to the Taoiseach and asking him to intervene to move this forward.

I have made a note of that, Deputy Brady.

Thank you, Acting Chair.

I thank Deputy Whitmore for her patience. I am very proud of this committee. The fact that is that this lastchance.com for Mr. Gaffney. Any fellow outside the door would know what has gone on here. I have read the stuff about the case but listening to Mr. Gaffney and hearing it from him, I recognise the beauty and genuineness of him and his family and everything else. We must consider the safety of crew and people. There are three or four more boats out there and a maritime disaster could occur at any time. Mr. Gaffney is being a major benefit to the European Union. Regardless of whether we are talking about Holland, Germany or Ireland, we are talking about a part of Europe. Mr. Gaffney is flagging a potential disaster. His was the test case and the ship failed the equivalent of the national car test, NCT. It is simple, but nobody is taking responsibility for that failure. Nobody wants to put up their hand and say they can help and hold those who have failed Mr. Gaffney accountable. It is utter and pure disrespect to him, his family, his profession, the shipping industry and the fishing industry. We will discuss the matter further but we are considering bringing representatives of the marine safety office before the committee. Mr. Gaffney has to get to the end of this. A massive injustice has been going on for years and for which someone else is accountable. I am not going to say too much more because I am getting angrier and angrier listening to Mr. Gaffney and Deputy Whitmore has been patient enough to wait.

I will be quick because I am also attending a meeting next door. I want to make a comment. Mr. Gaffney's submission shows it has been 15 years of a nightmare. He and his family have been put through pure torture. It is very much the case that he is falling between every single stool and no one is taking responsibility for what happened to him. The State has a duty of care in this instance. Mr. Gaffney is highlighting a safety concern that is of major significance but it is not just a safety issue because he is also highlighting an enormous gap in the regulatory system that has allowed this case to happen. It is important that those gaps are closed.

I am also from a maritime family and I know that when you grow up with it, it is in your system and blood.

That is the case. I would imagine it was difficult for Mr. Gaffney to have to deal with this happening to him and for him to be pulled out of his community, culture and job. The way in which he has been treated by the State is not fair.

I agree with Senator Craughwell’s suggestions and also those made by Deputy Brady. We need someone – I am of the view that it needs to be the Taoiseach – to take responsibility for this, to work with Mr. Gaffney and to make his case to Europe. We need the State to deal with Mr. Gaffney separately, and we then need this be raised in Europe. It may be an issue between Ireland and Germany, and discovering how this got through those gaps, or with the EU in a broader sense. However, that is not Mr. Gaffney’s role or job. He raised and highlighted this. He brought it to the attention of politicians. It should now be politicians who move it forward. Perhaps the Tánaiste, in his position as Minister for Foreign Affairs, might be a good person to do this if we are looking for it to be brought to Europe.

I hope that this is resolved for Mr. Gaffney, because it should be. What happened was not fair. I thank the committee for bringing Mr. Gaffney in. I am sure Deputy Brady had this experience as well. We were raising it with different Ministers and just got pushed back or directed somewhere else. It is incredibly difficult to identify one person and hold him or her to account. If we can get either the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste to take this matter up and, as such, advocate for Mr. Gaffney, then that is what we should do.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

Another shocking part of this is that we spent tens of thousands of euro on surveys. We have hundreds of surveys from Mr. Pinkster, Mr. Delaney, the designer and a court surveyor. We have them from everyone. All that is sitting at home. It was never even looked at. I have never been asked for that information by anybody.

It is absolutely mind-boggling. I am delighted Mr. Gaffney is here and has put the matter on record. That is extremely important. He has all the evidence. I do not come from a maritime background at all. I might have been picking periwinkles a number of years ago or something and I did not like that job either. Mr. Gaffney has all the evidence and nobody has asked him for it.

As he said, even though we are talking about his ship, there are other vessels still at sea today that are facing disaster. Nobody is even raising a red flag or is concerned about that. More importantly, however, nobody is genuinely interested in addressing the safety concerns for starters, which should be a red flag. As I said earlier, some of these ships genuinely failed the NCT but were still left out. Somebody has to be responsible for that.

I have listened to other members. I made a note of what they said and I will talk to the Chair about it. This is an international issue. I am speaking as Acting Chair. I have no problem bringing this case to the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach and pleading on Mr. Gaffney’s behalf. I do not agree that if we say we will help him, it till open the floodgates. I do not believe in that. How could it?

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

We are the only ones since 2009.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

That is the proof.

The only floodgates I can see is the other boats out in the water now that there could be a disaster with.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

We have a big problem with the Minister saying it is a failed commercial transaction.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

It really hurt when that came back, to be honest.

Did Mr. Gaffney have to live on that boat? It was not that he gave up.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

That is why it took so long. I just wanted to go back fishing because I did not know anything else. For the first few years, it was all to go back fishing. Then it just got to the stage-----

And Mr. Gaffney has lost everything.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

Yes, everything.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

Yes.

I admire Mr. Gaffney for his strength and I envy him for his family and the people he has around him. I admire him because when an injustice happens, it should be automatically corrected so it does not happen again to somebody else, whereas here it is seems to be pushed under the carpet. Nobody is taking responsibility. Everybody is trying to find a technical way of getting out of it, such as “It is too short” or “It is not written in legislation”. However, those things can be changed. That is what we do as legislators.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

Yes, what came across to us is that there is no legislation. As the Acting Chair said, they change the legislation every day as things move on. It has to be updated and this is a perfect example of where it should have been.

We felt so alone. It is so hard. You just feel alone. It is just about getting over it. When the boat was going, that was hard on me, especially when I delivered it to the new owner. When it started to look like the house was going, that was a different thing altogether. My partner and daughter were involved. It looked as if we were going to be homeless. I was very close to thinking about doing silly things at that stage.

I can certainly give Mr. Gaffney a commitment that this case will go further. We will probably follow it up with the marine safety office as well and have Mr. Gaffney back in. He and the other witnesses are the experts in the room when it comes to this matter. I give him a full commitment that we will follow up. The way Mr. Gaffney has been treated is absolutely shocking.

To follow up on that point, and Mr. Gaffney referred to this earlier, other serious issues have arisen in this State. The mica scandal impacted on thousands of people from Donegal right down the western seaboard and in other parts of the State. It was not any fault of any individual homeowner, and was completely outside of their responsibility. The Government devised a scheme - rightly so - to compensate people to rebuild their lives and homes, at a cost. I know there are many delays in moving that forward, but there is precedent. We are not asking for Irish taxpayers’ money to be used in this.

I do not believe in Irish taxpayers’ money for this. No way. It has nothing to do with it.

Europe has handed us a solution. We need to grab it and try to end this nightmare for Mr. Gaffney and his family. There is precedent. The Government just needs to find a way of utilising the offer put forward by the Commission.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

We are reasonable people to deal with. There is nothing involved in us. We are just ordinary working people. Anyone can sit down and talk to us. There is nothing outrageous or anything like that. We would talk to anyone and it would be the same way as it is today. That is way we are.

I can guarantee Mr. Gaffney that we will follow up with it. I am conscious of time. Does Mr. Gaffney wish to make a closing statement?

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

We are grateful for this and for the fact that the committee is pushing it forward. All we want is for it to finish and to get on with things. I wasted 15 years of my life. It is gone and I will never get it back. However, I would love to have another 20 or 25 years.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

People asked my why I do not stop. I cannot turn this off no matter what. If I stop, it is every bit as bad. Then I would hear, “You should have kept going. You cannot be giving up.” You are caught in that quandary. You just cannot stop. If this is not sorted, it is a life sentence. It really is a life sentence.

As I said, for the public outside, this is has been amazingly beneficial. It was extremely informative in such a short period of time. Sometimes we feel a bit guilty because Mr. Gaffney has been fighting this for 15 years. He gets his five or ten minutes of fame in here. It is not about fame; it is about getting stuff on the record. This committee is non-political. When we were setting up this committee the last time, we made sure it has an awful lot of strength - I do not like using the word “power”. We are well aware it is the "lastchance.com" for people to come to. We as public servants have a duty to afford that to every citizen. This is not our house, this is everybody’s house. We will certainly follow up with this.

Mr. C.J. Gaffney

Another thing is that we have met with all the parties. Every on of them has agreed with what the committee is saying today. No one will stand out, be criticised or anything for ending this. Everyone agrees that this is an injustice.

As I said, we will follow up. Does anybody else wish to come in?

Mr. Jakob Pinkster

It would be good to fix this. The ship was wrong from day one, and it was not his fault. That is it.

Sitting suspended at 2.50 p.m. and resumed at 3.03 p.m.
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