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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 18 Nov 2008

Constitutional Referendum Process: Review.

I welcome everybody to the second meeting in our review of the constitutional referendum process.

By way of background I will briefly outline the work of the committee. The Joint Committee on the Constitution is currently undertaking a review of the constitutional referendum procedure prescribed by Articles 46 and 47 of the Constitution. This is the second of a series of meetings the committee will hold with different organisations and individuals to hear their views and perspectives on the constitutional referendum process. To further inform its work in this regard, the committee will also consider the rules that apply in other EU member states in respect of referendum campaigning.

In the first part of this review, the committee is focusing on current arrangements whereby information is imparted to the public during the course of referendum campaigns. At the conclusion of this phase it is the committee's intention to present a report setting out its opinion to the Houses of the Oireachtas. There are other areas to consider and we are delighted to hear from the delegates with regard to matters that may be incidental to the purpose of this initial phase. We are very grateful for this.

I welcome Dr. Gavin Barrett from the School of Law, University College Dublin and Professor Nicholas Rees, the chair of International Politics and Contemporary History, Liverpool Hope University, formerly of the National College of Ireland. We are grateful to them for taking the time to meet with us and contribute to our review. I thank them also for their written submissions. Not all members have had time to go through these in detail but I am sure the witnesses will be able to refer to them adequately in their presentations.

Before commencing, I wish to inform the witnesses that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee.

I invite Dr. Gavin Barrett to make his presentation.

Dr. Gavin Barrett

I thank the Chairman. I should preface my observations by pointing out that I am neither a media expert nor a comparative constitutionalist. My primary interest in this area is European law and, in particular, the impact of a series of Supreme Court rulings in this area. Any analysis of the defeat of the 12 June referendum proposal to amend the Constitution must pay careful heed to the impact of the decisions of the Supreme Court in this area.

It is scarcely an exaggeration to assert that the combined effect of the Supreme Court rulings has been to effect a judicially ordained constitutional revolution in how decision making is taken in Ireland with regard to European treaties. These major changes have been paid inadequate regard until now, first, because of their gradual nature, occurring as they did over a series of cases, and, second, because notwithstanding this major paradigm shift, the then Government nonetheless managed to secure the ratification of the last major European treaty, the Treaty of Nice. Attention was thereby deflected from the reality that there might be significant problems to be resolved relating to decision making in this field.

It is no exaggeration to say that the impact of the three rulings I shall discuss, combined with the failure of successive executives and legislatures to react to them in an adequate manner with legislation, have ended up playing a decisive role in the failure of the State to date to ratify the Treaty of Lisbon.

There are three decisions of main interest to be discussed: Crotty v. An Taoiseach; McKenna v. An Taoiseach No. 2, and Coughlan v. the Broadcasting Complaints Commission and RTE. All three were brought by longstanding opponents to the European Union or to all recent treaty reforms of the Union. They therefore represent a successful appeal to the unelected judicial branch of Government to attain ends that would not have been attained by what one would regard as the normal method of securing legal change, namely, election to the Oireachtas and onward to the executive branches of Government.

The McKenna No. 2 and Coughlan cases did not as such concern referendums on European treaties. That may have distracted the attention of many from their implications for the ratification of EU treaties. Nonetheless, their principal impact has been with regard to Irish participation in treaty change in the European Union.

For obvious reasons I wish to focus most of my attention today on the Coughlan case. However, it is impossible to understand the impact of this case unless it is assessed in the light of the two other major Supreme Court decisions in this field, namely, Crotty and McKenna No. 2, and with the committee's permission, I shall look at those first.

Crotty v. An Taoiseach is the oldest of the three cases, dating from 1995, and has had a major impact on both the legal and the political planes. Legally, it has resulted in a constitutional amendment becoming necessary whenever the State seeks to ratify a treaty that, in the view of the Irish courts, would go beyond the essential scope or objectives of existing treaties. Because it is not possible to predict with exactness when a new treaty will do this, every Government since the Crotty case has found itself under immense pressure to hold a referendum even when there is merely a reasonable probability of treaties going beyond the essential scope or objectives of existing treaties. Politically, the Crotty case has also had implications and has contributed to an expectation on the part of many Irish people that every major European treaty will be accompanied by a referendum.

The effect of the Crotty ruling on the nature of Irish democracy is not to be underestimated. The combined impact of the Crotty case and the rule that the Constitution can only be amended by a process involving a referendum has led to a shift from representative democracy to direct democracy, unparalleled in any other state in the European Union. Referendums are held on the ratification of European treaties in Ireland independently of the will of both democratically elected branches of Government which correspondingly lose control of the process of Government in this regard. To the extent that the Crotty ruling mandates a referendum, the role of these branches is reduced to deciding matters such as the form of the referendum proposal and the timing of the referendum but not the question of whether a referendum should take place in the first place. Such referendums are held completely independently of any assessment of the suitability of the referendum topic for decision. The Crotty test makes no allowance therefore for the complexity of the treaty being considered.

I noted from the proceedings of the committee that questions were asked in this forum last week as to why journalists did not pick up on erroneous assertions made about the Treaty of Lisbon during the referendum campaign. Although I do not necessarily suggest that anybody on this committee did this, I believe it is unfair to criticise journalists excessively in this regard. The tangled nature of many of the inaccurate assertions made in the course of the Lisbon treaty campaign would have required a journalist who challenged such assertions to have had a thorough grounding in European Union law and, in particular, European Union institutional or constitutional law. The fault was not with the journalists but with the subject matter of the referendum. The fact that we have referendums on such matters goes back to the Crotty case, not to journalists.

The second case is McKenna v. An Taoiseach No. 2. This case was brought to challenge the voting of money by the Oireachtas to encourage a “Yes” vote in the divorce referendum. The case followed the earlier unsuccessful McKenna v. An Taoiseach (No. 1) case, which was a challenge brought by the same litigant in respect of Government expenditure during the Maastricht treaty referendum campaign. Although brought in respect of the divorce referendum, the outcome of the McKenna v. An Taoiseach No. 2 case was inevitably going to have a major impact in referendums on European treaties. The Supreme Court ultimately granted a declaration that the Government was acting in breach of the Constitution in spending public moneys on the promotion of a particular result in a referendum.

The McKenna v. An Taoiseach No. 2 case has had a double effect on referendums that concern European treaties. The first has been that once the Crotty case ensures that a matter is sent to referendum, the McKenna No. 2 ruling operates in large measure to take the Government out of the equation. In other words, the Government, effectively forced into a referendum by the Crotty ruling in the first place, is then deprived by the McKenna No. 2 ruling of the means to persuade the electorate of the correctness of its cause, or to defend the outcome of the behaviour it may well have been engaging in on behalf of the State for several years. The McKenna No. 2 ruling arguably represents an extreme position in this regard, in that the Government is not limited in the amount it can spend: it is to all intents and purposes deprived of the right to spend anything other than expenses Ministers would expend in the course of their normal duties.

Eliminating the Government in the style of the McKenna No. 2 ruling has a second effect. The role that otherwise would belong to the Government has been passed to other parties not subject to the same restrictions. Although they are important bodies and institutions, political parties and the referendum commission have a weaker level of claim on public trust and confidence than does a democratically elected government. They have had to take up the baton. Political parties and the commission are less well equipped for the task of communicating the advantages of a treaty than is a government. Political parties are better designed to fight elections than referendum campaigns. Moreover, although all three major parties favoured a "Yes" vote in the Lisbon referendum, in reality the supporters of Opposition political parties do not necessarily have any selfish interest, beyond the broader national interest, in assisting the Government, even when broadly in agreement with the ratification of the treaty. Such parties find themselves in a difficult position regardless of whether the referendum succeeds or fails.

It should be remembered that the referendum commission is not allowed to take sides and, in consequence, it cannot replace the Government in the function of explaining the advantages of a negotiated treaty to the public. It is not a replacement for the Government in any real sense.

What of the need to react to the McKenna judgment? The McKenna v. An Taoiseach No. 2 ruling is based on a majority Supreme Court interpretation of the requirement for concepts such as equality, democracy, fairness and the rule of people in a referendum. Whatever view one takes of the correctness of the Supreme Court’s interpretation, and it is submitted that the correctness of its views is very far from self-evident, it is clear that once the ruling was applied to State action, none of these interests could possibly be adequately served without a legislative riposte enforcing a prohibition on private financial intervention in a referendum campaign, beyond minimal levels and including loans. A level playing field can be just as easily disrupted by private financial intervention as by governmental financial intervention, which a majority of the judges in the McKenna v. An Taoiseach No. 2 ruling seem to find so objectionable.

It also seems clear that, as with competition law, such legislative intervention in order to be effective must be properly enforced by a State agency properly equipped with adequate investigative, injunctive and other legal powers. Notwithstanding the enactment of the Electoral Act 1997, the Electoral (Amendment) Act which followed and the creation of the Standards in Public Office Commission, no adequate such framework has ever been put in place. The result is that the McKenna v. An Taoiseach No. 2 ruling has largely crippled the power of the democratically elected Government to intervene in any effective sense in a referendum campaign, while leaving private parties with no democratic mandate whatsoever suffering no such equivalent comprehensive disadvantage. The consequences have been predictable. The ruling and the failure to react adequately to it largely constitute the reasons for the emergence for groups such as Libertas which had no electoral mandate and seemed largely to represent the political views of one individual as a considerable force in the referendum campaign.

I refer to the Coughlan v. the Broadcasting Complaints Commission and RTE ruling. This is the third and final contribution of the Supreme Court in this regard. The ruling is concerned for the most part with party political broadcasts which were, in practice, implemented by broadcasters which must take seriously the need to comply with legal obligations and, therefore, are always likely to take the safe option in terms of complying with balance requirements. The effect of this ruling has been to create a situation in which broadcasters feel constrained to give 50% of air time to both sides in a referendum campaign. The overall consequence of this 50-50 approach has been to nullify any advantage that elected officeholders such at the Taoiseach, the Leader of the Opposition, or the leader of a major party such as the Labour Party might be expected to enjoy by virtue of their position. The approach also nullifies any advantage elected politicians or major political parties could expect vis-à-vis politicians who have received no electoral mandate or support whatsoever, and vis-à-vis private undertakings such as Libertas, which has no mandate to represent anyone other than whatever individual or individuals control it. Arguably, it has also assisted in the creation of a false impression that informed, elected opinion is evenly split about the treaty, when in fact this could not be further from the truth.

We can summarise the impact of case law in the following manner. The Crotty case effectively abolished representative democracy in the sense of ratifying major European treaties and replaced it with direct democracy. In other words, it all but ensures that any major European treaty will be sent to referendum rather than being decided upon ultimately by the elected Government and Parliament. The McKenna v. An Taoiseach No. 2 ruling operates in a large measure to deprive the Government of much of its power to influence the course of the subsequent referendum by forbidding it to spend resources on a campaign. This makes the task of persuasion in a campaign fall by default on politicians and political parties. The reasoning in the Coughlan ruling, taken to its logical conclusion, is used in practice to deprive those same politicians and political parties in a referendum campaign of the kind of influence and access to the airwaves that they would normally enjoy. The result of this case law and the failure to react to it has been, to borrow the words of Mr. Justice Barrington in his powerful dissenting opinion in the Coughlan case, to play down or neutralise the role of political leaders in favour of committed amateurs. The surprise, given such a constitutional and regulatory framework, is not that the Government lost a referendum on the European treaty, rather that it should be thought possible that the Government could keep winning such referendums in this environment. I am not convinced that any of these three cases were decided correctly, but the least the Government can do is to attempt to react appropriately now and to hope that, in the case of the Lisbon treaty, it will not be a case of closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.

I offer several reflections on what might be regarded as an appropriate legislative reaction to each of the cases. Regarding the Crotty ruling, in deciding whether to hold a referendum on any treaty real consideration needs to be given by the democratically elected branches of Government, namely, the Executive and the Legislature, to the question of whether the subject matter of the treaty is an appropriate one for a referendum. If it is believed legislation is a more suitable approach for deciding whether Ireland ratifies a given treaty, or aspects of it, then that legislation should be used to whatever extent possible, rather than virtually automatically having recourse to a constitutional referendum on each occasion. These matters must be considered. If the Crotty ruling is to continue to be the test regulating whether a constitutional amendment is required to ratify European treaties, it may be that an amendment procedure involving, for example, super-majorities is a more suitable procedure than a referendum. The difficulty is that introducing such a change would itself require a referendum since it would involve amending Article 46 of the Constitution.

What of the McKenna ruling? What is to all intents and purposes the elimination of the Government from referendum campaigns in the manner in which this was decided upon in the case of the McKenna v. An Taoiseach No. 2 ruling is not a desirable development. However if it is to remain the law, the minimum legislative response must be a prohibition on private financial intervention in a referendum campaign beyond minimal levels. It is vital that this includes intervention in the form of loans. A level playing field can be just as easily disrupted by private financial intervention as by Governmental financial intervention, and with a good deal less democratic justification. As with competition law, such legislative intervention in order to be effective must be properly enforced by a State agency properly equipped with adequate investigative, injunctive and other legal powers, which could be deployed in the course of a referendum campaign before it becomes to late to stop excessive private influence affecting the outcome of that campaign.

What of the Coughlan case? Since the Coughlan ruling related only to the question of party political broadcasts, it remains open to the Government technically to regulate media broadcasts in such as way as to ensure due regard is given in the media to the fact that speakers are democratically elected representatives or holders of positions such as the Office of the Taoiseach, the Leader of the Opposition, or the leader of a major party and, therefore, that such persons have a different social function to others, to use the language of the Constitution. Such legislation should be enacted, but it would undoubtedly be challenged before the courts if this were the case. Its survival will depend on the now differently constituted Supreme Court adopting a different attitude to the meaning of equality than that taken by the majority in the Coughlan ruling.

There is some ambiguity stemming from the Coughlan case, even in the case of party political broadcasts and there may be some room for manoeuvre. It depends on whether one views the ruling as involving constitutional or statutory interpretation as far as party political broadcasts are concerned. The main judgment of interest in this regard is that of Mr. Justice Keane. There was some ambiguity in the final remarks of his judgment on the Coughlan case. His final observation before dismissing the appeal indicated that whether the difficulties confronting RTE in this area can or should be dealt with by legislation, they are not matters for the Supreme Court. He was not absolutely clear about whether legislation on party political broadcasts was absolutely ruled out.

I intended to examine in more detail the Coughlan v. the Broadcasting Complaints Commission and RTE ruling, but I do not wish to continue for too long.

This is most interesting and I urge Dr. Barrett to continue.

Dr. Gavin Barrett

Very well. Several points can be made about the ruling of the Supreme Court in this case. A preliminary point is that it is sometimes thought that the legal situation in which we now find ourselves is the accidental result of the rulings of the Supreme Court. However, this is anything but the case. Just as the rule governing financial intervention in referendums results from the vision of referendums espoused by the Supreme Court in the McKenna judgment, the weak role which political parties have in referendums corresponds closely to the model of democracy expressly envisaged by the ruling of Ms Justice Denham in the Coughlan case. I believe this is a flawed vision, but it must be acknowledged. It must also be acknowledged that we live as far as referendums are concerned in the house that the Supreme Court built, especially regarding the Coughlan and McKenna judgments.

Let us consider more closely the Coughlan case. I wish to make ten brief points. First, the ruling applies only to uncontested broadcasts, including party political broadcasts, since no complaint was made regarding any other kind of broadcast. Second, effectively it has brought about the end of the use of party political broadcasts in referendum situations. Third, the reasoning and standards deployed by the Supreme Court in reaching this conclusion appear to have relevance to other kinds of broadcast.

A cautious and prudent approach to fulfilment of a broadcaster's obligations in a referendum can reasonably lead to a 50-50 allotment of time between campaigners in favour of and against constitutional change. An argument can be made that the observations made which are relevant to broadcasts other than party political broadcasts might well be considered obiter dicta, opinions offered upon a matter not essential to the judgment. However, it is not clear that this would be a correct view since they do represent the reasoning which the court used in arriving at its conclusions on uncontested broadcasts in the Coughlan judgment, so it is not clear if one can classify them as obiter dicta.

The observations of the court in this regard are at a minimum the best guide that we have in relation to the law concerning these other kinds of broadcast. The case constitutes a strong precedent in that four of the five Supreme Court judges found for the applicant in the case, and of these three of them agreed with the ruling of Mr. Justice Keane. However, the Supreme Court is free to depart from its own previous rulings and we have known that since the 1965 decision in Attorney General v. Ryan’s Car Hire Limited, so it is not guaranteed that the Supreme Court will follow any of its previous rulings, although the Coughlan judgment constitutes a strong precedence. Another point is that the composition of today’s Supreme Court is almost entirely different to that of the court that decided the Coughlan judgment; only one of the judges who ruled in it is still a member of the court.

They are the points I wished to make on the Coughlan judgment. I can look more closely at models of equality that were examined in that judgment. I am not sure if the committee wants me to do that now or pass over to Professor Rees.

If Dr. Barrett sees something relevant in questioning he may want to refer to he may do so then. I thank Dr. Barrett; his presentation was very enlightening. We will hear from Professor Rees and then take questions. Senators Alex White and Dan Boyle have indicated they wish to ask questions.

Professor Nick Rees

I thank the Chairman and committee for inviting me to appear to comment on the functioning of the constitutional referendum process. I am a political scientist, so I will not reflect or dwell too much on the legal nature of this process, although I need to make some comments on it. I will focus my comments on the information provided to the electorate and on the political parties, and on the issue of airtime and possible options for future referendums. There is considerable research by academics on referendums in Ireland compared to Europe and the United States; they are not a new device and date from two centuries ago. They have been used in various ways by governments, sometimes subversively and sometimes positively in favour of democracy, so we must be aware there is a background to this already.

The key issue is the importance of understanding the conditions under which referendums are run. Communication, the provision of information and the role of political parties are very important. It is important to understand how that governs the referendum process and can influence the outcome, levels of public interest, voter intentions and turnout. There is a lot within our control. In understanding the outcomes of referendums, it is important to consider the overall levels of public support for European integration and the EU. In my own research on European integration I and my colleagues John Coakley of UCD and Michael Holmes of Liverpool Hope University have highlighted over time the persistence of residual opposition to European integration in Ireland. I am not convinced that opposition has grown dramatically; it has been consistent across the seven referendums we looked at.

In the cases of Nice I and the Lisbon treaty referendums this minority opposition was joined by a larger proportion of the voting public, who voted against these treaties despite many of those same voters being highly supportive of Ireland's EU membership. One dilemma is that EU referendums may be different from other types of referendums in Ireland, given that they involve asking voters to support detailed EU treaty changes which may be less easy to explain than some of the other types of issues before referendums. That is something we could discuss.

It needs to be kept in mind that there is an overall level of public support for European integration since the State joined the EEC. Eurobarometer data indicate that support has grown over time and even amongst "No" voters there is still quite strong support for EU membership. That is a dilemma because we need to probe further into what went on in the last referendum and in the referendum process, particularly on the general knowledge and interest of the public in the European Union, which seems to be very low and may reflect limited interest in the day-to-day happenings of Europe.

One issue is how the public are informed of issues at stake in the referendum. In the early days of EEC membership Irish Governments generally adopted a firmly pro-European position and were in a position to use resources to advocate a "Yes" vote. There was a fairly strong pro-European coalition of business, trade unions and other European organisations which endorsed treaty changes. That changed as a result of the McKenna legal challenge, and the response to that and whether or not we should have changes is something we need to ask ourselves. It changed the rules of the game and lead to the passage of the Referendum Act 1998.

The new rules of the game impacted in two ways. The first was that the expenditure of public monies by the Government of the day in advocating a "Yes" vote was stopped, given that the alternative choice was to provide equal funding to opposing groups. I will not repeat the details of that but will return with recommendations on it later.

The second was that on the allocation of airtime to the political parties, the Supreme Court in Coughlan v. The Broadcasting Complaints Commission, building on the McKenna judgement, ruled that it was unconstitutional to give one party more airtime than another. We are very aware of the outcome of that process.

The Referendum Act led to the establishment of an ad hoc referendum commission and changed the nature of the game. When we look at the early workings of the referendum commission they proved somewhat problematic, and in response to the report of the All-Party Oireachtas Committee on the Constitution the Act was amended in 2001. This removed from the referendum commission the requirement to put the case for and against EU treaty reforms which disenfranchised somewhat their role. The role it played previously was criticised as somewhat wooden and was described as not being very effective in putting the argument in a realistic sense to the public.

Critics of the McKenna judgment suggest this approach tied the hands of successive Governments, limiting what they could do in explaining the issues to the public who were being asked to vote on them. Nevertheless, it is worth noting that the Government is still responsible for publishing information on any proposed treaty amendments and has significant opportunities to publicise EU treaty changes. In particular, the Department of Foreign Affairs provides information on the proposed treaty amendments through the publication of White Papers and explanatory memorandums. In the case of the Lisbon treaty, the Department published and launched its White Paper on the Lisbon Treaty in April 2008. Opponents of EU treaty reform saw the McKenna judgment as providing a more level playing field and offering greater opportunities to debate the issues in the media.

The concern remains about the provision of public information and knowledge about the EU issues. Ultimately when one looks at what happened after the Nice I referendum the establishment of a National Forum on Europe provided a means and possibility to debate and consider issues in Europe and future reforms. The forum has provided a critical focal point for debate in recent years, both through its plenary sessions in Dublin, its regional meetings and its work with young people. The original objective of the forum was to facilitate a broad discussion of issues relevant to Ireland's membership of an enlarging Union, and to consider the range of topics arising in the context of the debate on the future of Europe. The forum has done an incredible amount of work in this area and yet at the same time we are aware there is a gap or a deficit in public information as reported by the electorate in understanding issues such as the Lisbon treaty.

The outcome of the first vote on the Nice treaty, which produced a "No" vote by 53.9% to 46.1% on a turnout of 34.8%, highlighted the publics' poor understanding of the issues. Some two thirds of the people surveyed were either only vaguely aware of the issues or did not know what the treaty was about. This represented both a failure of communication and of the campaign. In contrast to the first vote on the Nice treaty, the second referendum in October 2002 led to an increased turnout and certainly a greater awareness among the public of the issues arising in the treaty. They appeared to understand the issues at stake and were more willing to vote on them. This was prompted by a more successful campaign through the mass media and interpersonal discussions, aided by the work of the referendum commission and the Government's White Paper and summary. However, when one probes slightly deeper, as my colleague Richard Sinnott has done in UCD in looking at survey findings, the level of knowledge is still fairly thin.

The challenge for the referendum commission is that its remit has been limited by its terms of reference. In the most recent referendum on the Lisbon treaty the commission was not formally established until 6 March under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice O'Neill. In its work the commission did help to raise public awareness that a referendum was scheduled to take place on 12 June 2008. At best, this information, as it was portrayed was largely uninteresting and hardly exciting to the public imagination.

In analysing the outcome of the 2008 referendum, research suggests that one of the chief reasons given by those voting "No" was a lack of understanding of the Lisbon treaty and the issues, despite all the information and despite the party campaigns. In essence, many of those who voted "No" were not opposed to the European Union and were supportive of deeper integration. On average, 80% of "No" voters were supportive of EU membership, with 89% of all voters favouring the EU. The research suggests that voters were not convinced that they should vote in favour of the Lisbon treaty.

This raises the question of whether the quality of the information available about the Lisbon treaty was of a sufficient standard to raise intentional understandings of the treaty and to lead to voting. In general, there was not a lack of information on the Lisbon treaty, which was available from a variety of sources, although it failed to convince voters that they should vote for the treaty. In order to more fully understand why this was the case, we need to consider the role of the political parties.

At a formal level political parties do not have a constitutional role in the referendum process, although they provide one of the principal means of interest aggregation and articulation. They notably do not receive any public funding to conduct their campaigns reflecting an unwillingness to commit public funding to support "Yes" and "No" sides in any referendum campaign. It raises the issue of whether public funding should be revisited. This places the burden on all parties and other interest groups and individuals to fund their own campaigns. Clearly, it raises issues about those with the greatest wealth being in the strongest position to put their case. In practice, this has meant that the larger parties and groups have usually significantly outspent the smaller ones.

The role of parties in the process of referendums serve five functions. These are to inform and educate their own members about the nature of the proposed amendments, including through party meetings and briefing papers; to ensure that members understand the party positions on the major issues likely to arise in the referendum and, therefore, being able to explain them to a broader electorate; to utilise party workers to canvass the electorate and get out the party vote on the day of the referendum still remains a core function; to lead the debate and address the main issues in the media, including on TV, radio and in print — this has fallen principally to party leaders and those with the most knowledge and understanding of treaty reforms; and to use the party apparatus to rally broader support for or against referendums.

In discussing the roles that the parties have played, we need to look at the events surrounding each referendum to understand the actual role that each party played and how effective they were in rallying their own supporters and getting out the vote. There were questions during the last campaign on the referendum as to whether they were sufficiently able to involve the citizens and their own members to vote.

In addition to the work of the parties we need to be aware that single interest groups and individuals have played a prominent role in successive referendum campaigns. I will not go into the details of these as they are set out in my paper. To give the committee a sense of what is involved here, this has become incredibly more important in recent years, particularly with more slick marketing campaigns, slogans and posters as well as the use of the worldwide web and the Internet to promote messages for and against such referendums.

In the run-up to the referendum on the Lisbon treaty, the political parties appeared quite slow to formally establish their campaigns, which did not officially launch until early May. In practice many of the political parties and their leaders and key campaigners were already involved on the campaign trail from early in the year, participating in the National Forum on Europe, the Institute of European Affairs and in other fora in advance of those official launches. In most instances, the parties were also engaged in rallying and informing their own members through regional and local meetings prior to the official launch of their campaigns. The initial reluctance of the Government to name a date — 12 June — which it did on 25 April did impact on the process because it meant the campaigns were slow off the mark. Similarly, the public discussion of the allegations concerning the finances of the then Taoiseach, as well as the worsening economic position distracted from the referendum campaign. Therefore, there were some specific events in this instance that we need to bear in mind.

The main pro-treaty political parties seemed to encounter difficulties in communicating what the Lisbon treaty would mean for Ireland. The focus on trying to explain that the treaty would make the European Union more democratic and the EU institutions more effective and efficient in the context of an enlarged Europe did not seem to hit home. This message did not resonate either with the rank and file of the main political parties or with the public, who did not feel sufficiently confident to vote in favour of the treaty. Certainly, in some of the party meetings I attended there was little enthusiasm for the Lisbon treaty and limited knowledge about its contents.

On a number of occasions prominent political figures faltered and stumbled when it came to explaining the treaty and what it meant for Ireland. In many instances these were key individuals whom one might have expected to have a better knowledge of the treaty. Alternatively those opposed to the treaty, while far from providing a unified front, found it rather easy to highlight their concerns such as the loss of Ireland's Commissioner, neutrality, social issues, the democratic deficit and tax harmonisation.

The air time issue is significant in that these groups were granted significant access and key individuals, because of the equal right to access, got more air time than possibly some of the major parties, as is evident from the spread of time across them, which the committees looked at last week. In contrast, the parties supporting the Lisbon treaty were unable to make a clear case in favour of the treaty and were often left asking the public to vote in favour of it because it was in Ireland's interest. Even a last joint appeal by the leaders of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour on Monday, 9 June, highlighted the inability of the parties to convince the public.

When one analyses how people voted, the surveys tell us, for example, that Fine Gael voters were split almost evenly for and against the treaty. Labour voters were 55% opposed to it. Fianna Fáil voters were moderately supportive at 60%, the Progressive Democrats were in favour at 69%, the Green Party was split and Sinn Féin strongly opposed, by 95%. It was clear that many in the main political parties did not feel sufficiently confident to vote for treaty, preferring instead to vote against it, perhaps feeling that a better deal might be on offer at a later date.

I wish to turn to the last two topics, one of which is the rules governing the broadcast air time. In analysing the outcomes of past referendums the role of the mass media has been highlighted in the research as particularly significant in raising awareness and understanding of the issues surrounding EU treaty reform. I do not need to read into the record all the details from my paper but in examining the Lisbon treaty referendum, the area that was perhaps most contentious was the issue of ensuring fair and balanced coverage of opposing views. As some broadcasters have suggested, it was difficult to achieve that given the large number of political parties and groups in favour of the treaty and the smaller number opposed to it. This meant that groups such as Libertas and Sinn Féin, and particular individuals, were sometimes considered to have had more air time, given the paucity of other "No" groups. At an organisational level, that gave the media major practical difficulties, given that it was hard to strike a balance between the opposing viewpoints.

In general, most media organisations would claim that they did a reasonable job in balancing the views and ensuring that both opponents and supporters managed to get air time. However, there were claims by members of the major parties that they had to spend a disproportionate amount of time refuting claims by the "No" camp, which limited their ability to make their own case in favour of the Lisbon treaty.

Turning to the alternatives to amending the Constitution, in considering the role of referendums in the democratic political landscape, they have generally provided a means by which voters have been most directly involved in the political decision-making process on substantive issues. The use of referendums has grown since the Second World War in countries such as the United States, France and Switzerland. The uses to which referendums are put have tended to vary, however, according to the nature of the political system as well the conditions under which they have taken place. In some cases they have been used to legitimise legislation, whereas in others they provide a genuine means of direct participation on a variety of issues. In some cases they are obligatory whereas in others they are advisory, although few governments would be willing to disregard an outcome.

In Ireland to date we have had approximately 29 referendums, with 21 having passed, and they are considered by many as having played an important role in the political life of the State. I will not highlight all of them but we are very aware of the issues on which we have had votes. They include divorce, local elections, the death penalty, abortion and the Good Friday Agreement, to name a few. In the case of the EU treaty amendments, however, referendums have tended to provide rallying points around which opponents and supporters of European integration had an opportunity to put their positions on Europe. Sometimes they provided less a case of examining the treaties than a chance to replay old battles.

Under the provisions of the Constitution, a proposal to amend the Constitution must be passed by the two Houses of the Oireachtas and then put to a referendum. In the past, the nature of the issue under debate in the referendum has largely determined the level of public interest, with those touching on moral issues being hotly contested and likely to attract attention and turnout.

Turning to the referendums on EU treaty reforms, the State has generally taken the view that it has had to hold a referendum reflecting concerns that the adoption of any new treaty amendments would affect the Constitution. That is something we can challenge, particularly in terms of the level and requirements for certain aspects of EU treaty reform. My colleague from UCD has highlighted many of these points, and we can return to them in the debate, but we need to revisit past decisions to reconsider the purpose of referendums in terms of promoting a debate around the issues.

Ireland has thus resorted to holding referendums on amendments to EU treaties. It is one of the few states to have done so. In the Nice treaty it was the only state that used a referendum. Does Ireland need to do so? There are differences of opinion on this matter, depending on how one reads the Crotty judgment and the likely impact of a new EU treaty on the Irish Constitution. In the first instance, the State could decide to use a statutory instrument to ratify an EU treaty, assuming that the new EU treaty did not substantially extend the scope and objectives of the EU. The problem with this approach is that it would be most likely challenged and might lead to an abrogation of any such instrument. The outcome would be a further constitutional crisis whereby the Irish State's endorsement of an EU treaty would be found to be unconstitutional. It is also difficult to imagine a situation in which any government could seek to ratify an EU treaty without recourse to a referendum as it would appear to avoid seeking public endorsement and could be politically disastrous. It would also fundamentally challenge the general use of referendums in Ireland raising questions as to the reason the Irish Constitution was being overridden by a political elite unhappy with the outcome of a particular referendum.

In terms of recommendations for the committee, we should review the functioning of bodies like the Referendum Commission in providing public information. We need to review the use of public funding for campaigns, particularly in terms of parties, other interest groups and private individuals establishing thresholds here.

To what degree we should use referendums for EU treaty reform is a subject of necessary debate and in some instances referendums may not necessarily be the best option.

I thank Professor Rees. That was very helpful. We will now take questions. I said I would call Senator Alex White. Deputy Michael Kennedy had indicated he wished to speak before Senator Boyle, so we will hear first from Senator White, followed by Deputy Kennedy and then Senator Regan.

Both contributions were informative and non-contentious. We will bank the questions from speakers on the basis that there will not be the necessity for tit for tat exchanges. If that arises, members should let me know.

I want to ask two brief questions before I call Senator Alex White. First, on the Coughlan and McKenna judgments, are the witnesses aware of any Supreme Court decisions that were sympathetic or showed favour to representative democracy over direct democracy? Second, regarding new EU treaties, what issues can be decided by legislation and what issues do they believe require a referendum, relative to any new EU treaty, and what general principles are involved in that choice? To be fair to everyone, we will hear the replies when members have put their questions.

I thank both contributors to the session this morning. I found their contributions to be interesting, thoughtful and helpful to us.

The Chairman's question is an interesting issue for us because the committee has decided that, in the first instance, we are considering the current arrangements whereby information is imparted to the public during the course of referendum campaigns.

I was interested to hear what Dr. Barrett had to say about the effect of the Crotty judgment and it leads into an area on which he also touched, namely, the question of whether certain matters are suitable to be put in a referendum. He used the word "suitable". We can all accept that this is likely to be an area of considerable contention if we are to open — I do not say we should not open at some point — the discussion as to what types of material or questions put to the people are "suitable" to be so put and whether certain issues are not suitable to be put to the people. That is a major statement requiring considerable argumentation, discussion and justification as to an assertion that something is not "suitable" to be put to the people. It would raise fundamental constitutional questions for us. These are issues on which it would be suitable for us to continue our discussion after we deal with this area of the information imparted to the public in the course of a referendum campaign.

There are different views on whether a referendum was required with the recent Lisbon treaty. However, this committee is not dealing with the Lisbon treaty. This is not a post mortem into the Lisbon treaty referendum, which is happening in another committee room. It is important we keep focused on our task.

Given the work we have been asked to do, it is important that we, both members of the committee and contributors, do not fall into the trap of thinking this is just about the Lisbon treaty. Any of the changes that might be advocated, for example, with regard to the effect of the Crotty case and whether certain matters were suitable or unsuitable to be put to a referendum, would not just affect European affairs or matters to do with treaties. We would have to see whether it had general application on other issues, be it divorce, abortion and so forth. These issues have been highly contentious and people have made the point that they were not suitable questions to be put to the people and should be determined in the Oireachtas. We cannot, therefore, confine these big statements of principle just to the Lisbon treaty or to matters about which we might feel strongly. It has wider application.

I will return to the issues that are germane to the agenda for today. We are largely looking at the Coughlan judgment but I will briefly mention the McKenna judgment. I believe the Crotty judgment and its effect is a matter for another day. It is an important matter of scrutiny for the committee. It is fair to say there is a view that the McKenna decision is somewhat less controversial than the Coughlan decision. Dr. Barrett referred to what he calls judicially ordained constitutional referendum decision making, and he included the three judgments, Crotty, McKenna and Coughlan, in that.

Let us leave Crotty aside and examine the McKenna decision. Would Dr. Barrett not accept that there is at least a principle in that case that should be observed, that is, equality of arms, if I may use that legalistic phrase? If we accept that we are operating in a referendum environment, there should be equality of arms and there ought not to be any advantage given to either side in respect of advocating one position or the other based on their resources or their access to resources. Regardless of whether it involves Government or Opposition or a "Yes" side or a "No" side, there should be equality of arms.

Consistent with that equality of arms would be the point about the resources that were expended in the referendum recently on the "No" side. If the Government cannot spend money, it is ludicrous that the other side can spend what would appear to be endless resources in advocating for the other side. What is sauce for the goose ought to be sauce for the gander in this case. When the McKenna case was decided there was a concern on the "No" side that the Government had an advantage because of its access to resources. Ironically, the opposite appears to have happened in the recent referendum. Does Dr. Barrett agree that there ought to be equality of arms between a "Yes" side and a "No" side in the resources expended and that it should apply to both sides in a given situation?

Dr. Barrett mentioned a number of the different judgments by the Supreme Court in the Coughlan case. The principal one is that which has been quoted most often, the comment of the then Chief Justice Hamilton that RTE was required or obliged to hold the scales equally between both sides. That phrase has influenced the broadcasters into believing that they must accord equal representation to both sides, even though, bizarrely, we were told last week that it was not a requirement. However, all the evidence appeared to be that this was being done. It was odd.

It was only in uncontested broadcasts.

Would Dr. Barrett advocate constitutional change in this case to deal with the effects of the Coughlan judgment? If the Supreme Court says one must put both sides equally into the balance, would Dr. Barrett advocate a change to the Constitution to recalibrate the relationship between the people and their right to vote in a referendum on the one hand and political parties and the Government on the other? Would he advocate that political parties should, in fact, have a distinct role in the referendum process and that this should have constitutional underpinning?

Let us get straight to the point on this. It appears that this would be required to reverse the Coughlan judgment, although Dr. Barrett has allowed for the possibility of legislative change. I am not sure about that. He appeared to say that the Government could regulate this and that it might introduce legislation to, in a sense, privilege political representatives, although he did not use that word. I have considerable doubts as to whether such legislation could survive challenge in the Supreme Court, be it today's court or the one of ten years ago. I am not even sure it would be desirable that political representatives would have a privileged position in the media or elsewhere. I am open to argument on that but I cannot envisage it surviving a constitutional challenge. What might such legislation provide for and, second, would such legislation survive constitutional challenge?

I welcome Dr. Barrett and Professor Rees. They have made many thought-provoking comments this morning. I will not repeat what Senator White said but Dr. Barrett and Professor Rees made the point that successive Governments have failed to enact legislation. They also said that only one of those Supreme Court judges is currently sitting. Are they suggesting that the current members of the court might take a different view? Could they be a little more specific about what laws need to be changed and how we might do that?

Both Dr. Barrett and Professor Rees speak about the inequity of funding, where political parties cannot spend any money and the Government is hamstrung in the sense that it can only put out information without advocating a "Yes" or a "No" vote. With regard to the super majority question, they say the law should be changed, yet later they make the point that it will probably require a referendum anyway. Could they be a little more clear in terms of what we could change in the law without having to hold a referendum?

They also say private funding should be banned. How can that be done? Is it by referendum or can we pass a law to alter the position? They said the Government can regulate media broadcasts. Will we again be faced with a Supreme Court decision that the Government cannot regulate that and must hold a referendum? There appears to be many conflicts. Could Dr. Barrett and Professor Rees be a little more specific about what laws could be changed now that would not necessitate a referendum and those where a referendum is clearly needed? I again thank our guests. They have given us much food for thought.

I am still trying to decide, from the tenor of his contribution, whether Dr. Barrett is implying that the Supreme Court should be abolished, whether he is decrying a period in its history when it was particularly irrational or whether he is suggesting that it has come through that dark period and might behave in a rational manner from now on. The decision in the Crotty case was based on the fact that in a constitutional republic, the people are sovereign and that if the sovereignty of the country is to be changed in any way, the people should be involved in both the consultation and decision-making processes relating thereto. Legal arguments exist as to whether the subsequent application of the Crotty judgment to EU referenda was appropriate, whether EU treaties in their entirety need to undergo the process to which I refer, whether a simple "Yes" or "No" formula is the most appropriate mechanism to use in such referenda and whether other mechanisms such as the use of multi-option formulae relating to the issues within each treaty that affect national sovereignty should be considered.

On the McKenna judgment, Dr. Barrett pointed out the inconsistency in respect of private funding. I would argue that difficulties in this regard arise because we have not made legislative provision in respect of political fund-raising and political spending in an appropriate way. The rules relating to referendum spending are a hangover from those which apply in respect of general elections and which are disproportionately weighted.

I could not understand Dr. Barrett's argument regarding the handicapping of a Government in the context of making an argument under the McKenna judgment. It is a question of interpretation. If a Government chose to provide adequate public resources in order to explain its case in a referendum on a European Union treaty, the only obligation under the McKenna judgment is that similar resources must be provided to the other side. I cannot see how any democratic principle would be distorted in that context.

As Dr. Barrett stated, the Coughlan judgment only applies in respect of uncontested broadcasts. It has been argued to the committee to the effect that appropriate legislative provision could be made in that regard. Presentations we received from broadcasting companies seem to indicate that even if the Coughlan judgment did not apply, in the context of journalistic ethics, the 50-50 rule would be applied in most referenda campaigns. It is difficult to see what kind of distorting effect to which the Coughlan judgment gives rise, other than removing the arcane and ineffective mechanism of party political broadcasts. People usually switch off their television set when such broadcasts come on.

Professor Rees made a number of interesting points. One with which I have a personal affinity is that relating to the change in the terms of reference of the Referendum Commission. I am not sure whether Professor Rees was making this argument but it is a huge irony that the terms of reference the commission had for the first referendum on the Nice treaty would have made it more effective in the context of the referendum on the Lisbon treaty, particularly if it had been in a position to make "Yes" and "No" arguments. The terms of reference were changed for the second referendum on the Nice treaty and this made it difficult for the "No" argument to be heard. This happened on foot of a political decision. I am of the view that we need to return to a more open format.

Professor Rees also referred to political parties' use of the Eurobarometer. There is some question in respect of the methodology used to apply this to political parties across the board. I understand that a different methodology was used in the opinion polls carried out in the run-up to the referendum on the Lisbon treaty and that the Eurobarometer inquired how people voted at the most recent general election as opposed to which ones they supported in the referendum campaign. People could have answered the questions posed in this regard in two different ways.

I put it to both our guests that there is a major failure on the part of political parties in general to engage their own supporters and members with regard to how positions are taken in respect of questions relating to European Union treaties. The Labour Party held a 25-minute debate in respect of making a decision. Fine Gael passed a motion, on the nod, at its Ard-Fheis in respect of supporting the constitutional referendum. As such, no debate took place. I am not aware of Fianna Fáil engaging in an internal process as to whether it should adopt a "Yes" or "No" position. My party engaged in a robust process to decide whether we should vote "Yes" or "No" and, as a result of our rules, we arrived at a neutral position.

I could be less than generous in commenting on that.

If we are discussing the engagement of political parties with their members and what our guests described as the larger, traditional parties being extremely unsuccessful in persuading their members and supporters to vote a particular way, then that comes down to a failure of the political process rather than a failure of its constitutional counterpart.

Dr. Barrett referred to the obligation to hold referenda as a result of the Crotty judgment. Other countries have decided to use the referendum mechanism to encourage a better engagement and to obtain a better indication of where their people stand on issues of European integration and the development of the EU. As a rule, these processes have turned out to be negative and they do not reflect the views of representative democracy. I refer to the defeat of the Maastricht treaty in Denmark and its near defeat in France and the defeat of the constitutional treaty in both France and the Netherlands. Is this a constitutional or a political failure? I refer in this regard to the distance between representative democracy and the views of people in European countries. The failing in this regard is not particularly Irish in nature.

There may be a slight contradiction in what I am about to say. However, in the context of the three judgments to which I refer — particularly those in the McKenna and Coughlan cases — a Government might wish to use the referendum mechanism to change an aspect of the Constitution for political advantage. I cite the example of the two referenda held here in respect of changing the system of proportional representation. Without the McKenna or Coughlan judgments, there would be a major opportunity to distort a referendum campaign and influence how people might vote.

I agree with Dr. Barrett in respect of private funding. Is he suggesting that there be an open-ended system in respect of the amount of money that can be raised and how such money should be used? Alternatively, is he suggesting that referenda campaigns should be conducted in the context of an extremely tight monetary framework? In other words, would it be the case that the amount of private funding used should only be allowed to match the amount of public money available?

This committee is examining Supreme Court judgments and it I do not believe it is the intention to create a difficulty in the context of how we perceive the validity of those judgments. We must respect the separation of powers. The judgments to which I refer relate to the Constitution and how referenda campaigns are conducted. It is the prerogative of the Supreme Court to decide on matters of this nature and we are bound by its judgments. We are dealing with the implication of the court's judgments and whether there is any scope for introducing legislation, particularly in respect of the Coughlan judgment. That point was alluded to by a number of judges of the Supreme Court.

To some extent, the analysis of the effects of the Crotty, McKenna and Coughlan judgments is correct. We do not need to tear up the rule book to win referenda on European treaties. Every treaty that has been agreed at European level has, ultimately, been approved by this country. There were defects in the process in Nice I. It was a failure of the political parties mainly, as Professor Rees has outlined in his paper on the role political parties play. It is when the political parties fail that referenda are lost. The political parties failed in the Lisbon campaign and there is no question about that.

We should not see this committee as a means of identifying a new route by which we can bypass the problem of referenda or the need to consult people on decisions made at European level. The brief of the committee in this module is how information is imparted to the public during the course of a referendum campaign. This raises the issue of how questions are put in a referendum.

My views on this have been in writing for some time. I believe the Crotty judgment has been misinterpreted. We pass international treaties all the time, but only put those treaties to referenda where there is a new constitutional effect or impact on which people must be consulted. The treaty dealing with the International Criminal Court was one such treaty where we had a referendum on the same day as the Good Friday Agreement. The way we have dealt with the Crotty judgment requires some analysis, but that is for another day.

Identifying those aspects of EU treaties which raise new constitutional issues and putting them to the people in referenda would bring about more meaningful debate through which people would understand more precisely what they are asked to approve. They would not, therefore, be asked to approve things that had been approved in previous referenda. The judgment of the Supreme Court used the term "the constitutional licence of the first referenda". Many of the changes in the Single European Act in 1986 were already covered by that constitutional licence of the first referenda and we joined a living, dynamic and expanding community.

To return to the issue, the main focus of this committee is the Coughlan judgment and the effect of that judgment on the fairness of how information is imparted to the public in referenda. We learned from the presentation made by the broadcasters and the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland that the system is not as rigid as we were led to believe. It is an issue of balance, objectivity and impartiality. The Coughlan judgment did concern party political broadcasts, which is a matter that has been decided. Where there is an imbalance in party political broadcasts, that is seen as infringing the provisions of the Act and the Constitution.

There were references to legislation in that judgment. The question then for those making a presentation to the committee is where they see the scope for changing or altering in some way the manner in which information is presented in referenda to ensure it is fair and balanced. There is an argument that the 50:50 rule, if such a rule exists, creates rigidity in that it creates a "No" side to a referendum debate. In that situation the broadcasters have to find the "No" argument in order to balance the "Yes" side. Where all the political parties are in favour, this creates a certain artificiality and the broadcasters can be seen as favouring and promoting the "No" by virtue of the straitjacket with which they have been obliged to comply.

I am interested in hearing the observations of Dr. Barrett and Professor Rees on that issue.

Responsibility follows every decision made, whether by an individual or a group. As a nation we are responsible for the decision that was made in Lisbon. We might not agree with it and it may create difficulties, but we are obliged to get on with it. I agree with Senator Regan that to try and find a new formula to get the decision we want is not the way forward. We should not be considering going that way. We should not even be considering taking portions of what was the Lisbon treaty problem to the Oireachtas to be passed in the Houses. That would be a terrible mistake. We never had to do that before.

What we must do is face up to how we on the "Yes" side failed. Unlike the Green Party, Fine Gael did not have some people on both sides. The party as a whole wanted a "Yes" vote. We get into an unwinnable debate when we give people with no mandate and who appear from nowhere 50% of broadcast time. What annoyed me most was that these people could go on radio and make the most outrageous and factually incorrect statements. Then, whichever responsible person was there to respond was put on the back foot and had to deny what had been said. When one is denying, one is losing and the debate is lost.

How can we expect to win such an unwinnable debate? To give an example, a friend of mine with four children, three of whom are boys, is a senior lecturer in one of our main universities. The moment this intelligent woman heard the issue of conscription raised, she decided to vote "No". It made no difference what I said to her or what proof I gave her of the true facts, she had decided to vote "No". Create the doubt and plant the seed and when people have to start giving explanations they lose. That is what happened.

Perhaps this is the first time this has happened to this extent in this jurisdiction. However it has happened in elections in other jurisdictions. We had the swiftboating in the 2004 election with John Kerry. We should examine the information that is imparted by individuals via the media. There should be some semblance of truth in it. If we ignore that, we ignore the elephant in the room.

I would like to touch on the issue of journalistic ethics. It is very easy for the media to make the statement that it must have balance, no matter how unbalanced the case is. That was to be tested some time ago when we were considering a referendum on children. I would like to have seen how the media would have given 50% of air time to people against that referendum. It would not have been able to because the issue is so emotive. However, where emotion is removed, it is easy for the media to say it is obliged to give 50% of time to the "No" campaign or whoever is involved.

I started by speaking about responsibility. The media also has a responsibility. If people go on the airwaves and make statements that are incorrect, that must be dealt with.

I feel strongly about the last point. There needs to be some arbiter of the truth, which did not really happen in this case. Dr. Barrett was concerned about something said at one of our previous meetings about the broadcasters being criticised. They were not really criticised about it. They were just asked whether they referred to the commission and asked it what the factual situation was. None of them did, which was interesting. Was that because the commission was not encouraging that or did they just not feel like doing it? As Deputy D'Arcy said, there were very real untruths. The conscription one was greatly influential. I was out on the ground and with women that was a very big factor. When I could talk long enough to them I could get over it but I could not do that everywhere especially when I saw people handing out literature paid for on a private basis stating in a very clever way that conscription would result.

As Dr. Barrett said, the commission cannot take sides. We know that. We want a commission that will at least give the factual honest independent position. A judge of the High Court is involved. We all respect the independence of the Judiciary. We need someone to give that information and it did not happen apart from providing the leaflet. It prepared a very good leaflet and distributed it to all households. However, that is not enough. If people do not understand fully, including broadcasters or people wanting to appear on a programme, they need to be able to get on to the independent arbiter and ask for elaboration of the factual situation and of the leaflet's contents. Apparently that was not available. For fairness and objectivity we need to have it.

Professor Rees also made the point that in some respects the commission was not very effective in practice. We need to concentrate more on that area. The function of the commission can be reviewed in legislation. While we are concerned with the Constitution, there is no point in claiming to be concerned with the Constitution without being concerned with the follow through. In other words if legislation is required to implement a fair and independent situation, let us try to make proposals along those lines and ensure it is there.

The issue of funding also needs to be tackled. I do not know the solution. I have never had much funding and just kept walking. I used up shoe leather all the time. In a case like this people come in with what is obviously enormous funding because there were commercial people going around repeatedly delivering the literature. We need to review that. The witnesses appreciate the difficulty with private funds. There was no adequate control on private funds. How should it be done? How do we move on from there?

Dr. Barrett talked about the difficulty with the Crotty decision and the elected representatives. As an elected representative for many years I felt that I was sidelined. I could walk out and meet people in the constituency and attend meetings. Fianna Fáil had its own internal meetings which were also attended by people who were excellent at getting across the message, with great clarity in answering the questions. Nevertheless those on the "No" side represented by very few people got 50% of everything and could appear again and again saying things that were untrue. Some of the things they said were patently untrue and we could do nothing about it. The commission was also doing nothing about it. If we are to have good public administration we need to have a commission that is accepted as being independent and fair in what it has to say. We should then be able to use that so that fairness can come out. People were all over the place. They did not know what to believe by the time it was finished. A good few people did not bother coming out to vote at all.

Any suggestions the witness have either now or afterwards to improve that situation would be very valuable to the committee.

I call Dr. Barrett. There have been many questions and he should feel free to answer in a generic way if he wishes.

I shall need to leave soon. If I need to leave before Dr. Barrett finishes his contribution, like everybody else I can read the transcript later. I apologise, but I have a commitment at 1 p.m.

That is perfectly understandable. Everyone has other commitments. We will work away.

Dr. Gavin Barrett

I shall make two preliminary remarks. First, Senator Regan spoke about result-driven changes to the law, with which I fully agree. To save time I have dropped some pieces of what I was going to say. If I had had more than ten minutes I would have said I was glad to have the opportunity to address the committee. I am delighted this area of the law generally is being considered. I thought it merited consideration and review but not because a particular result came about in the Lisbon treaty referendum. If change is required, change should occur because of the manner in which one feels referendums are conducted and if one feels it is not appropriate. However, result-driven change has a bad history in Ireland. I would never advocate it and did not when I was speaking.

While I know it was asked in a somewhat jocular manner, Senator Boyle asked whether I favoured abolition of the Supreme Court and whether I felt its approach was rational in earlier cases or whether I felt the present Supreme Court were more rational. I know those remarks were made in a fairly jocular fashion. I am a barrister in my own respect for the Supreme Court. I know some of the existing Supreme Court members and the members who made the decisions in these cases. I have nothing but the height of respect for all of them. I recently spoke to a member of the Bench who said he welcomed even harsh criticism of judgments of the Supreme Court as long as it was not abuse. That is the kind of framework. At the same time we should not feel Supreme Court decisions are immune to criticism. They are out there to be discussed and even members of the Supreme Court acknowledge that. That is certainly the framework within which I propose to operate.

Deputy Kennedy asked whether a differently composed Supreme Court might take a different view. It is very possible. We need to be open to that. The Supreme Court is not bound by its existing decisions. That is the case and it needs to be borne in mind in adopting legislation that things that were felt to be unconstitutional earlier might not be felt to be unconstitutional in a later decision. That always needs to be borne in mind.

The Deputy also mentioned the idea of my indicating that private financing should be banned. I did not say that. I was concerned about the use of extremely large sums of money emanating from one individual or from a few individuals. I do not think it enhances democracy to allow large sums of money emanating from particular individuals to influence the course of a referendum. That to me is not democracy and it does not enhance democracy if that situation is allowed. That is the point I was making in that regard, regardless of whether those sums come in the form of loans to corporations or in any other manner. That area needs to be reviewed and regulated in order to enhance democracy in that regard.

Deputy Kennedy asked whether constitutional challenges would follow if the Oireachtas attempted to regulate broadcasting. Of course there would be constitutional challenges. That is what the three cases I mentioned were all about. That does not mean it should not regulate in this area.

I have already answered some of the questions asked by Senator Boyle. I acknowledge the sovereignty of the people, which I hope nobody disputes. We need to consider the question of how that sovereignty is expressed. That was the point I wanted to make in that regard. I agree with the point the Senator made about the limitations of a system that requires complicated issues to be boiled down to a simple "Yes" or "No" question.

Senator Alex White queried the suitability of many of the questions we tend to refer to the people by means of referendum. He emphasised the word "suitable" on a number of occasions in his contribution. I stress that one is not showing contempt for the electorate when one questions whether certain issues are appropriate for a referendum. The argument that drags us towards favouring having a referendum on European treaties is that such documents deal with important issues. The sheer complexity of European treaties, which tend to involve several hundred sections, drags us away from having referendums, however. Is it fair to ask people who, through no fault of their own, have no particular grounding in EU law to make a decision on such a document? The results of a Eurobarometer opinion poll, which were published after the Lisbon treaty referendum, revealed that over 50% of those who did not vote did not do so because they did not understand the document that was put in front of them. The Millward Brown poll that was commissioned by the Government revealed, if I have my figures correct, that 46% of those who voted "No" did so because they did not understand what was being put in front of them. When such figures emerge from opinion polls, one has to ask questions about the appropriateness of putting these questions to the people. Therefore, it is legitimate for one to ask whether the Supreme Court decision that pushed us in the direction of having referendums on these matters represents the ideal constitutional situation.

I cannot respond in detail to all the questions that were put to me. I was asked about the vision or model of equality that was envisaged in the Coughlan case. Senator Alex White mentioned what the late Mr. Justice Hamilton said about equality. The main judgment to which one should pay attention in that regard is the decision of Mr. Justice Keane. The judgment in question was agreed to by the late Mr. Justice Hamilton and Mrs. Justice Denham. Mr. Justice Hamilton's comments on equality represent the views of one judge, even if that judge was part of the majority. Mr. Justice Keane's decision represents the clear view of the majority of the Supreme Court. It is possible for the Supreme Court, which is now differently constituted, to go back on that, to depart from it and to change its views in that regard.

It seems that Mr. Justice Keane advocated a mathematical, 50:50 approach to equality in the decision he issued in the Coughlan case. For example, he quoted from an earlier judgment, that of Mr. Justice Blaney in the second McKenna case, that criticised the Government for not having held the scales equally in that regard. He attached a great deal of importance to the fact that the distribution of broadcasting time gave the "Yes" side a considerable advantage. He focused on the 4:1 imbalance in the broadcasting time accorded to the "Yes" and "No" sides in that case. He pointed to the implicit view that an equal amount of time should be given to each of the established political parties and to anyone else. Importantly, he condemned the system whereby time was allocated by RTE to party political broadcasts and other uncontested broadcasts in a non-50:50 manner. Senator Alex White made the point that Mr. Justice Hamilton's view was a 50:50 one as well.

Mr. Justice Barrington's ruling, in dissent, was a very interesting one. He felt that a 50:50 approach was simply not appropriate in this regard. In his judgment, he said that section 18 of the Broadcasting Authority Act 1960 "rightly provides that RTE ... should hold the scales equally between citizens and groups of citizens who wish to debate the merits and demerits of a referendum proposal". He went on to argue that "political parties ... are in a different category". He stated that "for RTE — simply because the political parties were agreed on the policy to follow — to set up further broadcasts to contradict the advice of the political parties would be to abandon its role as a neutral institution and to descend into the political arena."

This brings us to some of the questions that were asked about the need for a new vision of the role of political parties. I think it was Senator Alex White — I hope I am not doing him an injustice — who said he would be disturbed by the idea of privileging elected political parties above any other group during a referendum campaign. It is interesting to note the approach of the Supreme Court in this regard. I do not doubt that the overall view of the Supreme Court majority is in agreement with Senator White's opinion. Mrs. Justice Denham, who most clearly articulated the court's vision of the role of politicians during a referendum scenario, said:

The presentation of the issue to the public is different to the presentation in an election. The referendum procedure established under the Constitution is an exercise in direct democracy. However, the process commences in the legislature. There the political parties have a key role. There is initial control of the process by the legislature. Thus, the referendum machinery is not a threat to the system of representative democracy. However, once the process leaves the Dáil and Seanad, the institutions of representative democracy, it is a tool of direct democracy and the system should be fair, equal and impartial.

That vision is notable in two respects. First, it is a vision in which a reduced role for political parties is explicitly envisaged, once the referendum process leaves the Dáil and the Seanad. It gives the highest priority to equality and impartiality between both sides in a referendum campaign, regardless of how rudderless that leaves the ship of State. It leaves little room for members of the Government and other elected politicians in that regard. Second, it is a vision that corresponds closely with the way referendums now operate in Ireland. Apart from being an accidental development, it is the fulfilment of the vision of democracy envisaged by the Supreme Court in the Coughlan case. It is worth observing that the vision of democracy in question does not find any expressed support in the wording of the Constitution. For a vision of such fundamental importance, which is what this redrawing of Irish constitutional architecture is, it is unsupported by reference to historical precedent, comparative analysis or any broad theory of democracy.

The assertions made in this case by Mrs. Justice Denham — that the process commences in the Legislature, that the political parties have a key role at that stage and that there is initial control of the process by the Legislature — are now incorrect in so far as referendums on European treaties are concerned. The process does not commence, in anything but the formal sense, in the Legislature. It commences with the Legislature being more or less compelled to have a referendum, as a result of the Supreme Court decision in the Crotty case, regardless of how desirable it feels such a step might be.

I have mentioned the view of the role of political parties that was taken by Mrs. Justice Denham, and implicitly by the majority of the members of the Supreme Court, in that case. However, a different view was adopted in dissent by Mr. Justice Barrington. I happen to be more convinced by his view of the appropriate role of political parties. He said:

But when it comes to advising the people on a major political decision the principal role must rest with their political leaders. A distinguishing feature of a democratic society is that political leadership rests, not on power, but on persuasion. Likewise political authority rests on the consent of the electorate. It is right and appropriate that political leaders should use their authority and the arts of persuasion to lead the people towards the decision which their judgment tells them will best promote the common good. For RTE to attempt to neutralise the advice of political leaders would be to subvert the democratic values which it is directed to uphold.

I apologise for quoting in extenso in this regard. I emphasise that the views I am putting forward are not in any way radical. Mr. Justice Barrington expressed the same views. He said:

When the people are performing the ultimate act of sovereignty it is clearly right and proper that the views of all citizens should, so far as practicable, be heard. But it is also right and proper that the special position of political leaders should be recognised. In my view there is, in principle, no constitutional inequality or unfairness and no breach of democratic values in allowing political leaders access to the airwaves at referendum time on conditions dissimilar to those granted to private citizens but related to their social function as political leaders of the people.

Those are not my words, they are the words expressed in dissent by Mr. Justice Barrington in his extremely powerful judgment in the Coughlan case.

A number of other questions were put forward and I cannot answer all of them. I was asked to make some suggestions as to how the Legislature could react to what is taking place. I was asked not to dwell too much on the Crotty case. The suggestion that we could proceed by way of a referendum on something less than the entirety of the Treaty of Lisbon could be considered. However, the question one would have to ask is whether that course of action would be democratically appropriate having had one referendum on the whole treaty. There is a debate to be had in that regard.

In general, greater consideration needs to be given to whether European treaties should be automatically put to referendums almost as a stimulus reaction. I emphasise that this issue needs to be considered. It is appropriate that the democratically elected Legislature and Government should have sufficient constitutional room to do this.

I have dealt with reactions to the McKenna case. I am concerned that finance provided by a limited number of people with large resources could influence the outcome of a referendum. This possibility does not enhance democracy. Within existing frameworks, one could envisage all kinds of possibilities, whether State financing or allowing private financing subject to reasonable limits to ensure wealthy individuals with large resources at their disposal are not able to intervene in such a manner as to influence the outcome of a referendum simply by reference to resources. This matter requires a legislative reaction from the Government and Oireachtas.

While it is true that the Coughlan case related only to the question of party political broadcasts, attention must be paid to the reasoning on which the case was based because it is broader than just party political broadcasts. All kinds of factors come into play in how one reacts to the Coughlan case in which there is, as I noted, a degree of ambiguity, even in respect of party political broadcasts. If one reads the final couple of lines of Mr. Justice Keane's judgment in the Coughlan case, it is not absolutely clear that he was stating that the position in relation to party political broadcasts was dictated by the Constitution or his interpretation of the 1960 legislation being considered in the case. In so far as there is wriggle room for the Oireachtas in that regard, it should examine the judgment carefully, even in respect of party political broadcasts. I do not consider such broadcasts to be an outmoded intervention in the party political system as they had a useful role in informing people, including those who do not often read newspapers, about the views of their elected representatives on various matters.

In general terms, while it is strictly speaking true that the Coughlan case only relates to party political broadcasts, in other words, we have not had a decision on the remaining forms of broadcast, nonetheless I caution that the reasoning of the Coughlan case, in so far as the Supreme Court said there is a constitutional requirement of equality between both sides in a referendum in terms of access to the media, would obviously be outside the scope of party political broadcasts. While this cannot be ignored, we must not overlook the fact that the case, strictly speaking, only applies to party political broadcasts. The Supreme Court is also capable of changing its mind and is constituted differently than at the time of the Coughlan case. All these factors would have to be borne in mind.

The legislative position as regards broadcasts should be left as it is because, as members will have learned from the previous meeting, in practice a prudent approach to the legal obligations on any broadcasting medium is leading broadcasters to adopt a 50-50 approach, which is not appropriate. I apologise if I have spoken for too long.

Dr. Barrett's contribution has been highly informative.

Professor Nick Rees

I will respond to a few of the questions. While we have spent considerable time discussing the Lisbon treaty, there have been 29 other cases arising from referendums, only seven of which have been related to European matters. We must always bear in mind that anything we do here could have a potential implication for other types of issues. Perhaps the European treaties are a special case in point on which it is necessary to reflect and for this reason I am cautious about having a knee-jerk reaction to the Lisbon treaty case.

On the whole, referendums have been used successfully in the case of Ireland and we should not desist from taking the referendum approach. We should also be careful about jumping to conclusions. In a broader sense, the role of the Referendum Commission needs to be reviewed. The commission is hamstrung, its presentations were lifeless and its ability to provide detailed knowledge or information about the treaties was in many senses weak. It certainly could not counter some of the untruths referred to by speakers, including Deputy Woods. The role of the Referendum Commission, therefore, needs to be reconsidered.

Funding is a critical factor in terms of the conditions that can influence a referendum outcome, whether for or against. This Lisbon treaty case was unusual in that a private individual provided significant funding in the campaign. Normally the opposite is the case and we would be concerned that major parties are in a predominant position to utilise their resources to influence an outcome. There are grounds for having public funding to cover parties, interest groups and individuals campaigning in any referendum. This issue needs to be regulated and treated cautiously, taking into account examples from around Europe and the United States where funding legislation is in place.

On the activities of broadcasters, a more active and, in some respects, more interventionist role could have been helpful in addressing some of the so-called untruths that made it onto the table. One expects broadcasters to be able to deal with these matters and while some of them did so, this was true to a much lesser extent in radio broadcasts.

As to the questions to be put to the people, one needs to be very careful about how one asks people questions in terms of what sort of responses one gets. The material circulated to households was not readable or digestible. It was very easy to decide not to vote in favour of the proposal owing to a lack of understanding and also, perhaps, because one was turned off. The referendum information needs to be clearer and more nuanced. I have doubts about whether one can break down treaties into parts for voting. On the whole, people would not revert to breaking down the parts on issues such as abortion and the death penalty. While one could argue it could happen in some issues, I would not revert to that and I am not sure it is possible.

In the case of the Lisbon treaty, the text was in any event very difficult to communicate to the broader public. In some ways, there were always going to be difficulties in this respect. Arguably, this begs the question that, having been involved prior to the referendum process, the State needs to be more assertive in negotiations with other EU leaders to ensure issues are addressed before they come before the public. I will conclude on that note.

I thank the witnesses for appearing before the joint committee. Their contributions have been very helpful. As Senator Regan noted, the joint committee will produce a report focused on the outcome of the Coughlan judgment. Our discussion of other issues has been valuable for the joint committee's future deliberations.

The joint committee adjourned at 1 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 25 November 2008.
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