Vol. 26 No. 2
On behalf of Senator Quirke I move:—
That the Seanad hereby approves of the Gárda Síochána Pensions (No. 2) Order, 1941, made on the 14th day of November, 1941, by the Minister for Justice, with the sanction of the Minister for Finance under Section 13 of the Police Forces Amalgamation Act, 1925, and laid before the Seanad on the 17th day of November, 1941.
This order has been made because of representations which were made to me after the Gárda Síochána Pensions Order was made last June. It was represented that there was not adequate allowance made for some of those being retired. I had the question examined and I was satisfied there was something in it. I went to the Government and I asked for permission to empower the Minister for Justice, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, to give added years up to six years. At the same time it was thought proper to provide for deduction, instead of addition, if in any future case that should be considered appropriate. The effect would be that in the case of men who have already retired they would get pensions up to half-pay instead of what they would be entitled to if they retired through incapacity, namely, on the actual service given. That is the principal change in the Pensions Order. There was also a change in one of the articles, under which it was necessary for the Commissioner to give a certificate that a person getting a pension gave satisfactory service. Obviously if a man was retired because he was not considered satisfactory it was not very convenient for the Commissioner to do that. We have taken power to make it unnecessary for the Commissioner to give that certificate. That is all that is in it. So far, eight senior officers were retired. It is not the intention to give added years in all cases. There are some cases undoubtedly in which I am satisfied they should be given. I do not think that in any of the eight we have in view the pensions will be diminished. The pensions they will be entitled to, if retired from incapacity, would amount to about one-third. I was asked in the other House if further retirements were in contemplation and, as far as I could learn from the Commissioner, they included about two superintendents and at the outside 30 other ranks, sergeants and Guards. We hope that will be the end.
I should like to support the order. I think the Minister would be well advised to make as clear as possible what he said in the last sentence, with regard to the conditions in the force out of which this particular order and the order of last June arose, that he is approaching the end. It would be desirable, from the point of view of the force itself, and also the public, that the Minister should repeat —because these things have to be repeated—that whereas there might be a certain number in contemplation now, when that is over we will reach a point of stabilisation and that what one might call sins committed by persons up to the present will be forgiven. It is very unfortunate that the matter has had to be dealt with in this way. As I said when the order was previously made, the situation, all things considered, is that the Guards were asked to do something which verged upon the miraculous, and the fact that they have been able to do it at all is a great credit to a great many of them. I would like to put the Minister one question concerning the regulations applying to the Guards themselves. I know that Guards who have a certain number of years' service, who are married and have children, have a great objection to having themselves and their families removed to another part of the country. I do not know the reason for these removals, but I presume it is for police reasons and as a result of the experience arrived at by this force and other forces. I wonder if there is any regulation or scheme for moving a young Guard from one station to another—say, in the first seven or eight years of his service. I think this would have an effect on his efficiency. I wonder if there is any effort to give him a variety of duty.
There is one case with which I happen to be familiar. An effort is made to get Irish speakers for the Gaeltacht. Naturally, these Irish speakers come from a remote area originally—by the very nature of the case. They are brought to the Depôt and trained, and then sent to an Irish-speaking district—which also, by definition, is a remote area—and they are left there for seven or eight years. From the point of view of police duties, I do not think it is possible for a young man to become an efficient Guard if, at the beginning of his experience, he is put into a remote station and left there. I do not profess any special knowledge of this matter, but it would appear to me that, if a man got a year in a county town like Clonmel, Cavan, Dundalk, Drogheda, or Portlaoighise—apart from the Cities of Limerick, Cork and Waterford—it would be of very considerable advantage to him.
In the first years of their service, every Guard should see what real police duties are like in towns of a substantial size. The idea of sending a man who comes from a remote area out into another remote area, leaving him there for the first formative years, tends towards inefficiency and to, perhaps, the kind of thing to deal with which this order is framed. I am supporting the order. Perhaps I should have given notice to the Minister that I intended to raise this particular matter. I wonder whether there are any regulations or any scheme by which Guards, in the early part of their service, are given an opportunity to see different types of police duties.
I am not against the order, but support it. However, it has been pointed out to me that there is a rather strange anomaly in this. We are giving extended years for pension purposes to men who have to be retired from the force for, shall I say, inefficiency; but, in the case of a man who has to retire for health reasons, though there is a certain pension, so far as I know if he is under the statutory period he does not get any addition to his years of service. Does it not look rather unfair that the man who, for certain reasons, has to be retired compulsorily, is getting this extended period so as to qualify for an enlarged pension, whereas the man who is retired through no fault of his own, but perhaps for health reasons, is penalised? It was pointed out to me that there is a certain number of men who, as a result of their activities in the force, have contracted ill-health, but not enough ill-health to be retired. These men carry on under difficulties and in some cases, perhaps, the state of their health may be responsible for some of the back-sliding. It may happen occasionally that, in view of the health of these men, there may be a medical inspection, and if they are found to be not quite fit for active work they may be retired. Then, in all fairness, they should get the same consideration as is given to the men whose cases are under consideration now.
With reference to the point raised by Senator Hayes, I quite agree. Take the case of a man who is sent to the Gaeltacht. As a rule, he is sent because he is a thoroughly competent Irish speaker. Would it not be better —as the Senator points out—to send some of the young men who have a fair knowledge of the language? It would be first-class training for them to be resident in the Gaeltacht and would enable them to improve their knowledge of Irish. A man who has a competent knowledge of Irish, sent to an English or semi-English speaking district, would probably be of great help to his colleagues there. That is one aspect.
The other aspect has been mentioned on many occasions before. Is it advisable that these young men should be left for a long period in one neighbourhood? There is often the danger that a "hail-fellow-well-met" type of young man may be led into temptation. If it is taken in time, before it goes too far, and he is changed to a station in charge of a man who is very keen on discipline, it might be the best thing that could happen to him. I know this suggestion would be very unwelcome to the men themselves, but it may be in the best interests of many of the young men if they could be placed in positions where they would be under careful supervision and relieved from the temptation that is so prevalent in many of the stations. This matter is somewhat outside the scope of what we are discussing, but we did not get an opportunity to raise it for some time and it may be no harm to have it ventilated.
I am very glad that Senator Goulding has drawn attention so clearly to what appers to be a grave anomaly in the principle of this order. The Seanad is in considerable difficulty in studying this order. I understand that one copy has been left in the Library—it has not been circulated— and Senators have had no other opportunity to study it. It would require some hours' work to understand as much of the order as we learned in a few minutes from the Minister, who put the central point so clearly for our benefit. Nor have we had an opportunity to study the discussion in the Dáil, as the report which contains it arrived only to-day—my copy was on the doorstep as I was coming here this afternoon.
As regards Senator Goulding's point, I feared that that was the meaning of the order, from the little I could learn of it until the Minister spoke. He said quite clearly and frankly that it was definitely putting officers whose performance of their duties or whose capacity—I do not want to say anything harsh—was not quite equal to the duties they might be called on to perform at their degree of seniority in a better position as regards pensions than men who had served in the ordinary way, with good characters, in the force, and who retired through ill-health. I think that a stronger word than "anomaly" might be applied to that.
I do not grudge the addition the Minister proposes to give to this small class of people. It is no excuse to say it is a small one—that excuse has been given for other things. I think, however, it is an injustice to men who, through stress of work throughout the country, have broken down in health and are retired, that they are not treated as well as those whose capacity fails to adjust itself to a position of responsibility—and that is, I think, the position of officers for whom this order is designed. The Minister has not made any attempt to justify his proposals in favour of this small group of men as against those whose health has broken down in the ordinary service of the Guards. I cannot think of anything which would be more likely to cause discontent among the rank and file of the force, I cannot imagine anything which would be more likely to give rise to a sense of injustice, anything more calculated to be a righteous cause of discontent, than for members of the force to think that when they retire in the ordinary course they will be treated worse than men who were retired for inefficiency.
The Minister is probably aware that there is a good deal of discontent among the Gárda at the present time on account of inadequate attention given to their health while members of the force. I understand that they have to pay for any special treatment they may receive out of their own pockets. The Government gives some small help towards the Gárda benefit fund, but the proportion is, I understand, small. I think it is entirely wrong that the health of the Gárda should not be safeguarded by a proper system of treatment such as is provided for the members of the Army. That hardship placed on the Gárda of providing for the care of their own health certainly gives rise to discontent.
The Minister must be aware that there have been grave complaints published in the journal of the Gárda in relation to sickness in the force, which must be associated with this lack of attention. There have been grave complaints of insanitary conditions and the insanitary mode of living that many of the Gárda——
The Senator is unduly widening the scope of the debate.
I was afraid the Chair would stop me. I rose chiefly to support what Senator Goulding has said about the anomaly that exists—I would call it an injustice—with relation to the treatment of these men who are going because of inefficiency and the treatment of men whose health has broken down in the course of their duty. Senator Hayes made a very proper remark when he said that the country owes a great deal to the Gárda for the services they have rendered in past years. They have performed magnificent services. That is a comment which is properly made on the whole body of the Gárda and which should not be applied especially to the eight or ten officers with whom this order deals. The Minister in his opening statement to-day and in his remarks in the Dáil has not given any explanation to justify his proposals.
I welcome the provisions of this order. We are labouring under the disadvantage referred to by the previous speaker, the disadvantage of not having seen the order. That is unfortunate. There do appear to be some anomalies. I understand that the order will be in force for 12 months. There is a feeling among members of the force that under this order men may be retired for reasons other than inefficiency. Men may be retired through ill-health, and I take it that all retirements in the force will take place under the order during the period of its operation. I do not think it is right or proper that other retirements taking place, in addition to those mentioned by the Minister, should come under the order. I think they should be dealt with by ordinary disciplinary methods, as of old. These men should not come out at this period with the stain of inefficiency pursuing them through life. No member of the Gárda should be retired through this order on the ground of ill-health, even where that ill-health has made him inefficient.
The Minister wishes to obtain power to add to the approved years of service in the case of certain officers. I think the same power ought to be applied generally to the Gárda; there should be no discrimination between these officers and the Gárda generally. When they joined the force originally, they were all more or less of a uniform type. A man who has given 16 or 17 years' service, who has a family and whose whole interests are wrapped up in the Gárda, may find himself in a terrible position if, under this order, he is retired. He will have the responsibility of rearing a young family and he will have nothing with which to face the future except a miserable pension of 20/- or 25/- a week—which, I think, will be the average amount. I think the Minister is taking a lot on his hands when he is taking power to diminish the years of approved service. Approved service would appear to be the service that a man gets a certificate for, and I think the Minister is very unwise in taking it on himself to diminish the years of approved service, whether it be in the case of an officer or an ordinary Guard.
It would ease the minds of the Gárda generally—and I may say that there is great uneasiness among them—if the Minister would make it clear that this applies only to people whose inefficiency arose through faults which we need not now go into, and not through ill-health. He should also make it clear that the old disciplinary methods will apply after this order has ceased to have effect. It is necessary to make it clear that the two periods will not be mixed up, and that there will be a definite line drawn between men who are forced to go out through ill-health and men who are forced to go out through inefficiency, failure to give useful service to the people. I think the Minister should make it clear that there will be no difference in the treatment given to the ordinary Gárda and the officers. What will apply to one should apply to all; there should be the same measure of indulgence and the same measure of censure.
I want to express my sympathy with the point of view stated by Senators Goulding and Rowlette and I want to ask the Minister a question. I want to know when this order and the previous order, to which this is closely allied, will come to an end. I think we all have sympathy with the difficulty in which the Minister is placed in dealing with this rather abnormal matter. There apparently may be an injustice during a certain period to some people who may have to retire because of ill-health; their position may be worse than the position of certain others who were, in effect, compulsorily retired. I want to know how long that period will be. If it is an indefinite period, there might be a danger; if it is a short period, a period of short duration, one definitely defined, and if no other Minister will have the power afterwards, the injustice might affect a few people but from the public point of view it would not be so objectionable.
I think the whole trouble in the Guards was due entirely to the length of time that officers were allowed to remain in particular areas. I think that all Senators will agree that we have as good a police force as there is to be found in Europe and no Senator has any reflections to make on any member of the force. The Gárda are human, and if they are allowed to remain ten, 12 or 14 years in an area they will naturally make friends there and there is a danger that they will be tempted—and there is plenty of temptation—and, unfortunately, some of them fall. Now, I think that the old system in the Royal Irish Constabulary, where an ordinary constable would only remain in a certain area for a certain number of years, was a good system. After having served a certain number of years in one area, he was transferred to another area. As Senator Hayes has pointed out, these men should not be confined to a remote area, because, as a result of being confined to the one area, they make friends and it is possible that they may get into trouble as a result. Unfortunately, of course, a number of men have been obliged to retire for certain reasons, but that is no justification for saying that the Gárda Síochána, as a whole, is anything but a decent body of men, and I hope that, if certain members of the Gárda Síochána have to retire as a result of ill-health, the Government will give full credit to these men.
I should like to say a few words on a point of personal explanation. I think Senator Goulding misunderstood me. In the remarks I made, I was not referring to the question of the Irish language at all. The point I was trying to make was that if young members of the Gárda Síochána at the beginning of their service are left in a remote area for five or six years, it cannot be good for them.
With regard to the question of retirement on medical grounds, I wish to say that I know of a case of a man, who had been formerly interned with me, and who became blind in 1931. I think he is now depending on a blind pension, and I think the Minister ought to take into consideration such cases as that, particularly in view of the fact that the Gárda Síochána, in the beginning, had to face peculiar difficulties which, I hope, will not occur again.
The one question with which Senators seem to be chiefly concerned—and this was also the case in the Dáil—is that of members of the Gárda Síochána being retired on grounds of ill-health, but that is a question which is wrapped up in Civil Service Regulations, and I do not think I could deal with that matter. This order was brought in to deal with a particular condition. In reply to Senator Douglas, I may say that the order is only temporary, and it is expected that it will lapse next June. I do not see, at the moment, any reason for a renewal of the order.
On the question of retirement due to incapacity, that is not a matter for me to decide; it is a matter for the Minister for Finance and, with all respect, it is a matter that does not really arise on this question, although it was raised also in the Dáil. I can quite understand men being retired under such circumstances and feeling that they had a certain case for getting more than men retired under other circumstances. Some of these men thought that they should have been heard and that they should have got more, but the Government did not agree with that. On paper, at least, these men made a case, and that is why I brought in this order. I felt that there was force in the case that was made.
However, I suppose it would be better for me, at the moment, to keep to Senator Hayes's point about Gárdaí being changed. I know that the Commissioner, in the case of the Taca Síochána, did not allow them to go out of Dublin until they had a certain amount of training. In fact, I think they are all still here. The Commissioner realised that these men should be trained. I am not quite certain, but I think the practice is to give a young Gárda service in a fair-sized town before sending him anywhere else. I am not quite sure about that, and all I can say now is that I will draw the Commissioner's attention to the matter. I think the early training of a young Gárda is particularly looked after, and I am fairly certain that, in the case of the Taca Síochána, the man concerned gets a good training before he is sent into a remote area.
With regard to the point made by Senator MacCabe, about some of these men being changed from place to place, I do not think that that would arise in connection with the question of retirement as a result of ill-health. I understand, however, that our provisions in that regard compare favourably with those of any other police force in the world. Naturally, I am not quite certain about that, but I am informed that the treatment given to such men on retirement here is at least as good as that of men in similar forces in any other country.
Senator Cummins dealt with the question of approved service. "Approved service" here means actual service. That is what it means in this order. Then, Senator Cummins wanted to know whether all retirements would be made under this order while it remains in force. At least, that is what I understood him to say. Of course, that could not happen. If some Gárda or officer of the Gárda misbehaved himself, he would have to be dealt with by a disciplinary court, and his retirement, under such circumstances, would have to be with the consent of the Minister. That has happened in a couple of cases recently. But it must be remembered that some people might want to take advantage of this order, and get out of the force in that way, and so we still have the ordinary disciplinary regulations, and we do not intend to depart from them at the moment.
