Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 Oct 1996

Vol. 148 No. 17

Order of Business.

Mr. Manning

I join with the Cathaoirleach in welcoming the delegation from the Hungarian Parliament. We have all watched with great interest as that parliament has taken shape over recent years and we hope their visit here will be a successful and enjoyable one.

Today's Business is items 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. Items 1, 2 and 3 will be taken without debate. Item 4 is the National Cultural Institutions Bill, 1996, which will be taken from the end of the Order of Business until 2 p.m. There is a limit of 30 minutes per speaker and Second Stage will not conclude today although I expect the debate to continue until 2 p.m. There will be a sos from 2 p.m to 3 p.m. and item 5 will commence at 3 p.m. and last until 6 p.m. I suggest a time limit of 20 minutes per speaker and Members may share time. I also give notice to Members that it is intended to sit at 10.30 a.m. next Wednesday, 23 October, rather than the usual time of 2.30 p.m.

Mr. Wright

I also extend a welcome to the Hungarian delegation and I wish them a very successful Irish visit. The Order of Business is agreed. I presume the time is subject to the happenings in the Dáil. Does the Leader still expect it will be 3 p.m.?

Mr. Manning

Yes.

Mr. Wright

Following yesterday's request to him, is the Leader in a position to tell Members they will have an opportunity next week to speak on the beef industry? The Minister's responses to inquiries yesterday are all the more reason for us to have a debate next week on the beef industry and beef contracts.

Mr. O'Toole

We agree the Order of Business and in particular the fact that the National Cultural Institutions Bill, 1996, will not conclude Second Stage today. That is crucial as there will be many speakers from these benches.

There are more queries on the beef industry than there have ever been before. In the most neutral terms, there are many of us who want to know the facts and to have the matter discussed. Many of us want to hear the justifications from both sides and the arguments being put forward. We need to be informed and I support a debate on it.

We on the Independent benches see the hepatitis C issue as one of major human concern and it does not help if it becomes a party political football.

Mr. Dardis

I would like the Leader to give a specific undertaking that we will debate the BSE crisis in full next week. I will not go through the reasons, which I outlined yesterday, for having such a debate. The Leader is well aware why we should have one. We must concentrate on what political, rather than official, actions are being taken to restore valuable markets. This is the appropriate place for the Minister to answer questions on that issue.

The Leader has indicated that the debate on the tribunal of inquiry into hepatitis C will last from 3 p.m. to 6 p.m. Yesterday, quite a few Senators were still offering at the end of the debate on Northern Ireland. I note the Leader has allocated 20 minutes per speaker on this matter but I wonder if it is enough.

Will the Leader tell us whether the Minister will be prepared to take questions on this matter? We have done so on previous occasions so we are not asking for a precedent to be established. Will there be a period of 15 or 20 minutes at the end of the debate for a question and answer session?

Mr. O'Kennedy

While the Cathaoirleach has kindly agreed to my request for a motion on the Adjournment concerning the beef industry, I join with all my colleagues in seeking Government time to be made available as soon as possible for a comprehensive debate on this matter. It is essential in view not just of its importance to the beef industry and farmers in Tipperary, Cork and Monaghan, but for the economy. The precedent set by this decision is a dangerous, if not disastrous, one.

I ask the Minister for the Environment to set up a comprehensive inquiry into the sources of contamination of Nenagh's water supply? It is becoming a matter of serious concern for people in the town and surrounding region. The Minister's Department is equipped to carry out a hydro-geological survey. Recently, there has been further pollution from a contaminated well that had been expected to provide adequate water supplies.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sure the Senator can find some other way of raising this issue.

Mr. O'Kennedy

I want to know if the Minister will do so because it is not just an issue for the town of Nenagh. It sets a standard for every community throughout the country. Will the Leader convey that request to the Minister in view of the latest information? I want to find out if there is any likelihood that pollution may have seeped into the aquifer which would mean that we have a very serious problem in Nenagh.

Dr. Henry

Will the Leader of the House ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Minister for Justice and other relevant Ministers what efforts the Government is making to ensure that sittings of the tribunal on war crimes in the former Yugoslavia go ahead in The Hague? Initially, we made strong representations on that matter but now that we hold the EU Presidency we should do more. Judge Goldstone has left, some say in despair over the lack of progress, and has been replaced by Judge Louise Arbour from Canada. Very few arrests have been made in Bosnia. Rape has been recognised as a war crime and I gather that women there have stopped giving evidence. They say that no arrests have been made and those who raped them are freely walking around the areas where the crimes were committed.

The White Paper produced on the subject stated that we would treat the war crimes tribunal as a priority yet we do not seem to be following this up with any action. I would be grateful if the Leader can find out what the Government proposes to do to bring this matter forward.

Mr. Farrell

Will the Leader arrange a debate on the national lottery, particularly on how prize money is distributed? The last number of draws resulted in a roll over of prize money to £1.5 million or £2 million before it was won. If no one wins the top prize by getting six numbers, the prize money should be distributed every week between those with five numbers. In that way, people would receive a fair share each week rather than having the jackpot rolling over. The debate should also cover how national lottery money is distributed among organisations.

Professor Lee

I was a member of an Oireachtas delegation to Hungary led by the Cathaoirleach's predecessor. I want to express good wishes to our Hungarian visitors. If their visit here is as rewarding, illuminating and instructive as our visit to Hungary — we returned with a heightened appreciation of Hungary's role in modern Europe — they will have a successful visit. It will contribute towards fostering even closer and friendlier relations between our two countries.

Mr. Daly

Will the Leader ask the Minister for Enterprise and Employment to indicate what action he is taking on the sacking of over 200 people at the Verbatim plant in Limerick? Many of those employees come from my constituency in County Clare. There is a marked absence of any Government interest in the closure of that plant. I was concerned when I heard an IDA executive on radio saying that as the electronics industry is a new one it is difficult to keep abreast of changes. There is nothing new about the electronics industry, it has been in existence for the past 50 years. It is time that the national agency dealing with industry was aware of the problems that exist. Can we have some indication that the Minister and the Government are serious about this? We have heard nothing from Deputy Kemmy of the Labour Party, nor from the Minister for Health, Deputy Noonan, about the fact that 250 people are losing their jobs in the city of Limerick.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the matter today.

Mr. Daly

Will the Minister outline to this House what efforts he is making to protect the jobs of workers at Verbatim and to open up prospects for them in that area?

Mr. Sherlock

Has the Leader had any response to a question he raised about the apparent undue delay in granting naturalisation to people who have spent five years in this country and who have completed all the necessary documentation? They are advised they have to wait for the Minister to act. Nearly 12 months have passed in some instances, which amounts to undue delay. Is any progress being made in that matter?

Mr. Norris

I join in welcoming the distinguished delegation from Hungary. I had a brief opportunity to listen to the discussions at the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs yesterday before having to return to the Seanad for another debate. I had the privilege of visiting their beautiful country on a number of occasions. The first time was in 1989 with the Interparliamentary Union. I was glad of the response then when I raised the question of Raoul Wallenberg and I hope the Hungarian Government will continue to pursue that matter.

Will the Leader provide time for a debate on Luas? I received a decision, in principle, from him which was favourable. Many of us are concerned about it. There have been developments today with the further intervention of Commissioner Wulf-Mathies. The Minister appears to be undermining the public inquiry by anticipating its result in advance and that the plans for an overground light rail will be continued with. That was not the feeling that this House was given by the Minister.

Does the Leader share my concern about the destruction of a listed building in Parnell Square in apparent conflict with all our feelings about heritage? The roof was removed from the building after some damage to the rear. It looks like the old case of a north side planning permission.

Mr. Finneran

In view of the ongoing debacle regarding the Minister for Health, will the Leader of the House indicate if the Minister will resign? This is the greatest scandal of recent times concerning a Minister for Health. While we appreciate his apology it goes no way near what is needed. The general opinion is that he was not as forthcoming in the last 12 months as he was 12 or 13 years ago.

An Cathaoirleach

That matter will be discussed this evening.

Mr. Finneran

The Leader of the House might discuss it with the Labour Party because it probably calls the shots.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator will have an opportunity to discuss that matter this evening.

Mr. Finneran

He was very forthcoming with information 12 or 13 years ago but he has since become one of the boys. As regards the public's perception of the Minister at this stage, perhaps he will do the honourable thing.

An Cathaoirleach

That matter does not arise on the Order of Business.

Ms O'Sullivan

I share in the welcome to the Hungarian delegation.

Mr. Kelleher

Would the Senator like to see Deputy Noonan get the sack as well?

Ms O'Sullivan

No. I will respond to Senator Daly rather than Senator Finneran. I share the concern of Senator Daly on the loss of jobs in the Verbatim factory in Limerick but I assure him that every effort is being made——

Mr. Daly

Nothing is being done about it.

Ms O'Sullivan

As Senator Daly knows well, there are a large number of people in the Limerick area employed in the computer industry. We hope that there will be some development in the Dell factory in particular but he also knows that there is a fine infrastructure in the Limerick area, particularly the Plassey Technological Park.

An Cathaoirleach

I remind the Senator that we are not discussing that issue now.

Mr. Daly

Explain that.

Ms O'Sullivan

We are not discussing the issue but it is unfair to suggest that efforts are not being made. One of the concerns I have is the way in which the workers were informed of the decision. That could have been handled much better and there could have been much more consultation.

Mr. Daly

What is going on there is disgraceful and the Senator knows that.

Ms O'Sullivan

It is unfair to suggest that efforts are not being made to secure jobs in the Limerick area. There is a need to get more jobs and I hope we will have better news in other announcements that will be made in the near future.

Mr. Daly

Do not defend what has gone on in Verbatim. What they have done is a scandal.

Mr. Maloney

When will we have a discussion on the White Paper on mental health? The Green Paper was published in 1992, four years ago. There are serious concerns within the psychiatric service. It is the Cinderella of the health service. There is undue delay. The Nurse's Bill is being spoken about at present. There are concerns within the service as to why the White Paper is not coming forward. I ask that every effort be made to bring it into this House as soon as possible.

Mr. Quinn

Will the Leader of the House find time in the near future for a discussion on currency, having regard to the way this most important element of European Monetary Union is proceeding following a successful meeting in Dublin a month ago? This is happening without discussion in this House or in the other House. It is important that we find time for this before decisions are made.

I support Senator Norris' call for an urgent discussion on Luas for the same reasons that he has so articulately put forward. There is a danger that decisions are being taken without this House discussing them.

Mr. McAughtry

I would like the Leader to convey to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry the gratitude felt by many in the agriculture industry in the North for his expression of concern for the difference that a distinction be made between Northern Irish and English cattle. The Minister was kind enough to say that he would do all in his power to emphasise the health difference between Northern Irish and British cattle. It is much appreciated.

Mr. Kelleher

He cannot do it for his own.

Mr. Dardis

On a point of order, on item No. 5, how can we table a motion that has not yet been passed by Dáil Éireann? What happens if that motion is amended in the Dáil?

An Cathaoirleach

Each House does its own business.

Mr. Belton

I would like to record for Senator Finneran that it was the longest phone call in history — 13 years.

Mr. Manning

I thank Senator Belton. He is always a hard act to follow. I have to figure out that comment.

A number of colleagues, especially the Leader of the Opposition, raised the question of a debate on beef. I will make every effort today to ensure that debate takes place, hopefully, next week. It may mean sitting on Tuesday of next week. Senator O'Toole also raised that point and I share his sentiments on the upcoming debate. It would be useful if we could keep it at that level.

Senator Dardis asked about the possibility of questions at the end of today's session. It is normal practice that the Minister replies to questions raised during the debate, but if there is a strong view that perhaps ten, 15 or 20 minutes be set aside for such questions and answers, I will talk to the Minister about it. I do not see any particular difficulty with that, but the Whips can discuss it after the Order of Business.

Mr. Daly

Allow him a minute for apologies as well.

Mr. Manning

Senator O'Kennedy raised the question of the Nenagh water supply. It is a matter appropriate to the Adjournment where he can get all the information available on it. I will try to get information for Senator Henry on the Government's attitude to the war hearings tribunal in The Hague. Senator Farrell mentioned the Lotto. The issue of numbers on a lottery ticket is not appropriate to this House so we could not have a useful debate on that. His point about the distribution of lottery money could be raised later.

Senator Daly and Senator O'Sullivan raised the question of the job losses at Verbatim and I share Senator O'Sullivan's certainty that everything is being done.

Mr. Daly

I assure the Leader that nothing has been done.

Mr. Manning

I also share her view that the matter was badly handled by the company. It is appalling that many of the employees learned from the media that their jobs were gone. Such behaviour by any company is simply not acceptable.

Mr. Daly

The IDA is equally responsible.

Mr. Manning

I will attempt to find an answer for Senator Sherlock. I was not expecting that question today. Senator Norris raised the issue of Luas and a debate would be useful. I hope we can have one in the near future. I also share his perplexity about what is happening in Parnell Square. I thought that sort of thing was in the past. I do not know any more than that.

On Senator Finneran's question, there is every confidence in the Minister for Health, Deputy Noonan. He has handled a difficult task well and he will be here today——

Mr. Kelleher

Not tomorrow.

Mr. Manning

——to answer any question he is asked and to, once again, take on the chin anything Senators may have to put to him.

I do not know as yet when there will be a debate on mental health but I will talk to Senator Maloney about it. Senator Quinn is right. We should have a debate on currency. It is a major issue and I will talk to him afterwards and try to get a time in the next couple of weeks for it, subject to the availability of the Minister for Finance. It would be useful. Senator McAughtry has drawn attention to an extraordinary and important initiative by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry. He sat down with the three Northern Ireland MEPs this week to try to help them with their problem. I was disappointed that a Senator as young as Senator Kelleher should show a partitionist mentality in this regard. It was not appropriate. In terms of the wider context of North-South co-operation and what is happening on this island, what Minister Yates did is most important because he showed, by deed, that this is one island.

Mr. Kelleher

What about Tipperary and Monaghan?

Mr. Manning

He should be commended strongly for that.

Order of Business agreed to.