I am not proposing any amendment but much of the effectiveness of this legislation will hinge on the budget allocated to the director. I see that unhappy phrase "as may be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance" in the Bill. Has the Minister the outlines of a budget at this stage which she intends to present to the Minister for Finance? The feeling of the House generally would be that the budget should be adequate to the job. If it were of some assistance to the Minister in persuading the Minister for Finance to give a reasonable provision to the director, the House should give some imprimatur to a budget that would be regarded as adequate. We would then know the sort of staffing levels and other resources that would be needed to implement this legislation and we could say to the Minister for Finance that it was indicated to us during the debate that the director should have a certain complement of staff. It would be helpful to the long term operation of this Bill if, before it left the House, we had some idea of what the Minister felt the staffing and other requirements of the director's office would be to implement it.
SECTION 19.
When we sought Government approval for the printing of the Bill, we put forward in tandem what the Director of Consumer Affairs would require by way of resources to implement the Bill. Without wishing to refer to Government agreements, the text of the Government decision encompassed our proposal.
Is the Minister willing to give an inkling to the committee of the type of staffing levels?
When the Bill is enacted I will be pleased to talk about that matter publicly, perhaps on the occasion of a public manifestation of the Bill with the Director of Consumer Affairs present. I would put to the Deputy and to the House, however, that like any organisation the director can never have enough resources and he would always be looking for more. What we are getting might not be the ideal. That will only come about by practice and by implementation as the Bill develops. I did not want to preside over a Bill which ab initio had no resources allocated to it. In the proposal for the publication of the Bill, therefore, we put forward what that would mean for the Director of Consumer Affairs in terms of resources and the Government decision encompassed that. Having been close to a Minister for Finance for some years, Deputy Bruton knows quite well that they kick up when the time comes for allocating funds or they seek to have the funds allocated from some other Government Department. Be that as it may, we believe we have given ourselves a reasonable umbrella of comfort but I have no doubt that we will have to fight again. However, we must abide by the Government decision.
Is Deputy Bruton clear on that now?
I think Cain was fairly close to Abel too.
Obviously this is extensive legislation which will be of major benefit to those who come within its ambit. On the issue that has been raised concering the cost of running the Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs, has the Minister ever examined the possibility of generating income from the operation of this legislation? Many people will feel confident about approaching financial institutions and organisations to take out agreements of one kind or another by the putting in place of this legislation. Lending institutions and other such organisations might be fairly requested to make a direct contribution to the Minister's coffers because of the extent of this legislation and the protection it will afford to parties to any particular agreement. Has the Minister considered that?
We have estimated that the fee income which will be generated, particularly by the licensing arrangements, will be approximately £1 million. That is what we have put forward in our armoury of submissions to the Minister for Finance. In regard to the Deputy's second point concerning credit institutions, it has been put to us that they will be at a loss as a result of this legislation because they will be required to produce new data bases, computer filing systems, new forms and so on. I have always held the view that if one is buying money, one is entitled to the fullest information about that credit. It would be a novel idea if I were to say to the banks and the building societies that the passing of this Bill will make everything very clearcut and, therefore, they should contribute towards the cost of running the Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs, but how that idea would be received is another matter. We have estimated — perhaps conservatively — that the fee income generated will be approximately £1 million, which will be used towards the enforcement of the Bill.
Deputy Flood has made an excellent point. The Minister will be aware that in more recent times assets and moneys held by drug dealers can be confiscated. In Limerick, the amount of money held by illegal moneylenders in their homes is frightening. They can make huge amounts of money from this practice and sometimes the courts are unable to confiscate this money in the form of fines. I realise this is mainly the function of the Department of Justice, but following on from what Deputy Flood said, if some of that illegal money could be transferred to the director, it could be used to promote the work he is doing and also to make people aware of their rights. I take the Minister's point that a large amount of money could not be allocated to the director at the outset and that it will have to be done on a trial and error basis. If some of the money from illegal moneylending could be transferred to the director it would relieve some of the pressure on the Minister's Department. I believe this is a worthwhile idea.
Deputy Flood has raised an interesting point and I agree with what Deputy Kemmy has said. I have had a similar experience in my constituency, where the practice of illegal money lending seems to be quite extensive. In terms of any proposal that there might be confiscation powers relating to some of the proceeds, the Bill does not even confer the right to arrest where a garda has reason to believe that the person concerned is an illegal moneylender and cannot produce a licence. Even in those circumstances the Bill does not confer any right of arrest. We are a long way from implementing confiscation procedures when a garda who has a suspicion that a person is involved in illegal money-lending or cannot produce a moneylender's licence or authorisation, has no power of arrest.
That is dealt with in another section. We are talking about getting money to allow for the proper enforcement of consumer rights. Moneylenders must pay licence and other fees. Deputy Flood said banks, building societies and other credit institutions should also be willing to contribute towards funding the enforcement of the Bill on the understanding that it would lead to a better credit environment for both lenders and borrowers, but that would force them to raise bank charges because they would have to introduce extensive data banks, computer forms and regulations of one kind or another.
Nonsense.
They would say that.
The Minister must resist them.
I hope Deputy Flood's idea gets widespread coverage and endears itself to them. I would welcome proposals from them. When I met them recently I told them it is in their interests that consumers are satisfied and do not complain about bank and building society practices. It is the secrecy, mystique, walls of misinformation and use of obscure words which leads consumers into agreements about which they do not have full or proper knowledge. It banks and building societies respond positively they will be better regarded and the consumer will be more confident.
What about confiscation?
The Deputy is talking about where drugs are found. A case in my constituency involving an attack on a house recently received wide coverage.
It is worth examining where people have amassed money in their homes through illegal moneylending.
Usually they have it in bags in their houses.
Yes, under beds and so on. It is dreadful to see them stock pile large sums of money gained from such activities without the State being able to get some of it for the purpose I mentioned while often there is great poverty in the community around them.
This is the most comprehensive legislation to come before the House in a long time. Is it intended to set up a register of all financial institutions and those covered by the Bill? There is a mass of financial institutions. In many small towns there are up to 30 agencies between building societies, banks and so on. Illegal moneylenders are a plague on our society and the Bill has little power over them.
House mortgage is a lucrative business and all the financial institutions are chasing that market. I would like to see the amount one must repay published. The real interest rate is one thing but APR is another. I am interested in how the interest is calculated and the amount of money to be paid.
There is a section which deals with that aspect and we will come to it soon.
On the point made by Deputy Flood I would not like the Director of Consumer Affairs to be dependent on fee income from banks or financial institutions who are being policed. There are roles for the taxpayer and one of them is the law enforcement. I would not like to see the director develop symbiosis with those he seeks to police While licence fee income from banks should be set at a realistic rate and paid to the Central Bank or whoever to defray expenses, I would not like to see a provision in the Bill that the director would be dependent on funding from those he polices. I sympathise with the Deputy's point but I would prefer if the director were funded by the Exchequer and his independence assured in the Dáil.
I know the Minister and her colleagues are familiar with Shakespeare but I hope the Minister for Finance will not take the view that the best way to implement this is "neither a borrower nor a lender be".
"For loan oft loses both itself and friend, and borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry".
That is from "Hamlet". Polonius is speaking.
If we could get off the stage I will now put the question.