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Select Committee on Legislation and Security díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Mar 1997

SECTION 19.

I move amendment No. 21:

In page 27, subsection (2), line 39, to delete "relates to" and substitute "contains".

This amendment deals with the judgment of the Supreme Court in the Attorney General v. Hamilton, 1993, relating to the beef tribunal. Section 19 contains a number of exemptions relating to meetings of Government. Subsection (2) deals with Cabinet confidentiality but appears to go beyond what is required by the Supreme Court decision. To quote from the judgment of Chief Justice Finlay “The claim for confidentiality of the contents and details of discussions at meetings of the Government in relation to the inquiry of this tribunal is a valid claim”.

It was the contents and details of Government discussions that the Supreme Court found to be confidential. This Bill appears to go further. It proposes that anything which "relates to" statements made at a meeting of the Government will not be disclosed. Thus, material of the most innocuous kind used by a Minister to prepare for a Cabinet meeting would be exempt under section 19(2) because it would relate to what he or she said at the meeting, even if he or she said something completely different. The Supreme Court only protected Cabinet discussions. The words "relates to" go beyond this. My proposal is that they should be replaced by "contains" to comply with the decision of the Supreme Court.

On Second Stage I said that it was extraordinary that this Bill makes no attempt to deal with the consequences of the Supreme Court decision. The Minister and her colleagues, particularly those in the Labour Party, were critical of that decision and promised to change the law by way of an amendment to the Constitution. However, if we are to take the Supreme Court's decision on board in this Bill, we should not go further than the court. It mentioned contents and details of discussions at meetings of the Government; it did not mention matters which relate to those contents and discussions.

Is the Deputy suggesting that the Government does not have time to proceed with a referendum?

I am concerned that nothing has been done to bring forward proposals to deal with the implications of that decision, even though there were strong indications from some sections of Government that there would be an effort to change the law accordingly. Whatever about not changing the law, it would be foolish to allow this Bill to pass extending the spirit of that Bill rather than merely containing it. The decision related to contents and details of discussions at meetings of Cabinet rather than statements and details which related to them. The Minister understands the point I am making.

A lot of detailed work has taken place in preparation for a referendum on Cabinet confidentiality. However, this Bill must respect the Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. I am keen to have as open a regime as possible when it comes to Cabinet matters. That was recognised by Senator Lee. It is not true to say that innocuous material can be hidden behind the cloak of Cabinet confidentiality. We are strictly bound by the terms of the decision.

I respect the Deputy's point. We are providing an open Cabinet regime and access to factual information is available immediately after a decision has been published and access to the full memorandum for Government becomes available within five years. I will seek legal advice on the wording proposed. We do not want to go beyond the Supreme Court decision but we must respect it in full. I will consult with the draftsman and return to this matter on Report Stage.

I accept that the Minister and the Government are bound by the Supreme Court decision until Cabinet confidentiality is changed by referendum. However, we should stick to the letter and the limits of the Finlay judgment rather than going further than required. I look forward to further discussions on this point on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 19 agreed to.
Section 20 agreed to.
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