This provision is similar to section 9 of the Forestry Act, 1946, in relation to the acceptance and application by the Minister of gifts for the purpose of the Bill. This section enables a Minister to accept gifts offered to him for the purposes of the Bill. If the section were not there and some public spirited individual offered an area of land—wetlands or something like that—the Minister would not be in a position to accept.
SECTION 6.
Question proposed: " That section 6 stand part of the Bill."
Would that require additional legislation?
I must confess that, unfortunately, I did not have time to put down an amendment in this regard. I would like to see this very important provision going much further than is proposed here. The Minister is simply taking power to accept gifts. Many people would make gifts of property to the State if they could get some concession in regard to tax. That is why I would like to see this section enabling the Minister to negotiate with persons who would wish to make gifts to the State whereby they would not have to be involved in all sorts of taxation complications. One would like to know that a person would be in a position to say " I have a very valuable wildlife habitat. I wish to ensure that it is preserved for the nation but I cannot afford to pay the wealth tax on it between now and the time of death. However, if you will absolve me from wealth taxes on this property for the rest of my life, I will donate it to the nation on my passing". The Minister should have some discretion in these matters.
There are many other aspects, too. An individual might not be able to cope with a property, for instance, but there would be no difficulty for the State to cope with it on such terms as would be agreed between the parties.
Such a general proposition as Deputy Haughey proposes would be a matter entirely to be dealt with by the Minister for Finance in a Finance Bill. Some of the capital taxation Acts provide for the exemption of properties from certain types of tax but under certain conditions. For example, there is special provision for gardens and houses that are open to the public. There was a long debate on the question of libraries. However, such a discussion would not be appropriate in the context of this Bill. This section is wide enough to cover what Deputy Haughey has in mind because it says that the Minister may accept any gift made to him for all or any of the purposes of this Act and subject to the terms thereof. The words " subject to the terms thereof " presuppose that there will be discussions between the donor and the Minister for Lands in regard to the terms under which gifts are made. I could see a situation arising where the Minister for Lands in accepting such gifts, might have to refer to the Minister for Finance. I think that the very laudable objectives Deputy Haughey has in mind are covered here.
The words " subject to the terms thereof " refer to the purposes of this Act and are limited in that respect. Consequently, the powers are very limited.
I would not agree because the section says that the Minister may accept any gift made to him for all or any of the purposes of the Act.
But they are subject to the terms thereof.
That means subject to the terms of the gift.
That would not include moneys since section 4 provides that all moneys received by the Minister under the Bill must be used as the Minister for Finance directs.
That is not so.
Does section 5 not contradict the next section in regard to the receiving of moneys?
No. What is envisaged is moneys for services rendered or charges for entry into certain places. What is meant by section 5 is moneys spent on the administration of the Act.
That is the normal meaning. Deputy Brennan is right when he refers to moneys received under this Act.
Obviously it means moneys received in the administration of the Act and section 6 refers specifically to this but does not limit them in any way.
For example, a person dies leaving £1 million for the purposes of this Act and if the donation is in money the Minister for Finance may utilise it in accordance with section 5.
I shall seek the advice of the parliamentary draughtsman on the points raised by Deputy Brennan and if it is thought necessary to amend section 5 by saying " all moneys received by the Minister under this Act other than moneys received under section 6 ", we can so word it.
May I remind the Minister that what he is suggesting may involve the question of taxes and, consequently, impose a charge on the Exchequer? Therefore, we must be careful. If there is to be an amendment I suggest that the Deputy bring it in on Report Stage.
I have undertaken to have a look at it.
That is a reasonable undertaking but I would like the Minister under this section to have the power suggested subject to the agreement of the Minister for Finance.
As the Chairman suggests, the Deputy could put down an amendment for Report Stage which, I take it, will be before the House.
I could do that but in view of the magnificent bevy of advisers that the Minister has at his disposal I thought that since he is disposed kindly to the idea, he might table the amendment.
I have given an undertaking to consider the matter favourably but I would not wish to mislead the Committee by going any further than that. I shall consider all the words of wisdom that have been put to me.
The words " subject to the terms thereof" do not cover what the Chairman and I have in mind. We would wish for a situation where the Minister in agreement with the Minister for Finance could negotiate with a potential donor in regard to certain tax concessions, or even to make available to the person concerned the services of the Department whereby that part of the estate in question could be managed by the Department for the remainder of the donor's life.
As all the voluntary organisations know, all the expert advice of my Department is readily available to those who are interested.
I should never hesitate to avail of the excellent advice which the Wildlife Section, for instance, place at my disposal. I pay a compliment to them in that regard but I am concerned that in allocating a particular advisory or management service the Minister might be incurring a charge on the Exchequer. Normally he would not be able to do that whereas if he is given the power to negotiate with potential donors, the Bill would be much better.
I am not giving any undertaking other than to say that if the Deputy puts down an amendment I shall consider it favourably.
The Minister appreciates the point being made.
Question put and agreed to.