Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 26 Feb 1959

Vol. 173 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 44—Universities and Colleges.

Minister for Education (Mr. J. Lynch)

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £22,500 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1959, for Grants to Universities and Colleges, including certain Grants-in-Aid.

The provision in this Supplementary Estimate of a grant of £22,500 to University College, Dublin, towards the cost of adaptation of premises is necessary to enable the college to supply additional laboratory and lecturing space for students in the department of chemistry. The number of students taking the degree in science has increased so much that there has been great overcrowding in the department of chemistry and it has been necessary to triplicate classes, involving a great strain on the necessarily small staff. It was ascertained by the college authorities that some relief could be obtained without undue delay by effecting structural alterations within portion of the existing premises at Upper Merrion Street which would result in the provision of laboratory working space for 120 more students together with a lecture theatre to seat 120 students. The Office of Public Works have been consulted in regard to the plans and it is felt that the adaptation of the premises in accordance with these plans will provide a solution to this urgent problem at a reasonable cost.

With regard to the completion of the work, the work was planned in two stages, the first stage (lower floor) to be completed by the date of opening of the 1958-59 academic year and the second stage (upper floor) to be completed by early January, 1959. The work was carried out accordingly and the second stage was completed early this year.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Is léir gur gá leis an Meastachán seo. Tá a fhios againn go léir go bhfuil i bhfad níos mó scoláirí ag dul isteach anois agus go bhfuil i bhfad níos mó ag foghlaim ealaíon fé láthair. Tá an méid sin ag dul i méid agus beidh sé ag dul i méid go gceann cupla bliain eile, agus beidh na scoláirí ag brú isteach i gColaistí na hOilscoile, go mór mhór in Áth Cliath. Tá gá leis an airgead seo.

Cuireadh coiste ar bun tamaill ó shoin chun dul isteach san scéal ar fad faoi Choláiste na hOllscoile i mBaile Átha Cliath. Bhfuil an tuairisc fachta ón gcoiste sin nó an mbeidh scéal ag an Aire go luath faoi sin?

Seán Ó Loingsigh

Fuaireas tuairisc i dtaoibh Áth Cliath agus Corcaigh agus tá mé ag fanacht le tuairisc i dtaoibh Gaillimh i láthair na huaire. Tá sé ag teacht, is dóigh liom, i gceann coicíse. Níor brathnuíodh an scéal go dtí go raibh gach tuairisc fachta againn.

Mr. Dillon

When the Minister gets this, does he propose forthwith to make provisions for moneys to provide the accommodation recommended in these reports? We are wobbling and hobbling over providing adequate accommodation for the National University of Ireland, for the last decade. Why on earth someone does not take courage in hand and tell University College, Dublin, we will give them £500,000 a year for the next 20 years, in order to get the accommodation erected, I cannot imagine. Everyone knows it must be done sooner or later and, so far as the experience of most of us goes, commissions and inquiries ultimately result in nothing being done.

I think that at the present moment there are over 4,000 students in accommodation which was originally designed to accommodate 1,000 students, but of which only a quarter was ever built.

Seán Ó Loingsigh

About 60 per cent. of the accommodation was completed.

Mr. Dillon

In the case of the original plan designed to accommodate 1,000, I do not think any more than a quarter was ever built and the rest of it consists of ruins at the back of Earlsfort Terrace. There are now 4,000 in the schools there. The College of Science was there, but by way of supplement we took half the College of Science and turned it into the Department of Agriculture and Government Buildings.

It is almost unbelievable that, in this year 1959, University College, Dublin —one college of the National University of Ireland—should have 4,000 students, that is, over 4,000 seeking education, on premises which are merely adequate to cater for 250 to 300 students. If we go on indefinitely appointing commissions and establishing inquiries, the end of it will be that nothing will be done.

I believe that to-morrow one could say with perfect confidence, in respect of the Science School and the Engineering School, that whatever the report has to tell, it will certainly say that new accommodation is required for both of those. It will take several years to complete such accommodation, from the date on which authorisation to proceed with it is given. Why on earth do we not take our courage in our hands and say that, pending the publication and consideration of the comprehensive report referred to by Deputy Mulcahy and the Minister, on the total problem of accommodation in all the colleges, ad interim we will tell University College, Dublin, to go on with the plans which are in existence for the provision of a Science School and an Engineering School? If we do that, we will be getting somewhere and, in the meantime, the Government can hatch on the various reports which are being sent to them and can defer a final decision to a later date.

Is there any Deputy who doubts that, over the next ten years, we shall have to spend some millions at least on providing decent accommodation for University College, Dublin? I do not think there is. If that is universally agreed, is there anybody in doubt that two parts of that new accommodation will consist of a Science Faculty and an Engineering Faculty? I do not think anyone will seriously challenge that. Why do we not tell them to go on now, at least with these two buildings, and postpone the commencement of the other schools which are in contemplation until the Government have received and considered this report? If the Minister did that, I would rather envy him his opportunity of doing it, because if it were done, his name would be indissolubly associated with a great new departure. I would sooner wait for the fall of his Government that somebody—not personally, of course, but politically—more worthy would have the privilege; but I am prepared to forswear that advantage in the interests of University College, Dublin, if it would ginger the present Minister into doing what should have been done some time ago.

Major de Valera

The general discussion of this matter is more appropriate to the main Estimate when it comes before us, but there is something more involved in this than the mere supplying of the moneys required here now. The provision of the accommodation which is the direct subject of this Estimate is an absolute and urgent necessity, from the mere administrative point of view of physically catering for the attendance of the students. That problem is, perhaps, the one which forces the immediate issue. Over and above that, however, there is a chronic problem, a serious problem, in all our University Colleges. It arises out of modern developments, and it is the problem of maintaining the standard of schools in certain faculties, the problem of maintaining the standard of technical education and training given in technical faculties, and the standard of the degree which is awarded at the end.

Heretofore, the National University and the University of Dublin have been able to award degrees and maintain a standard of degrees which has been equal to—and, in some cases, perhaps, better than—degrees awarded elsewhere. Certainly, the standard in the Science and Engineering Faculties has been as high as anywhere in Ireland or England. As time goes on, it becomes more difficult to maintain that position, on account of the complexities of these subjects in modern times and the amount of equipment needed to do the courses properly. That specialisation brings further complications, both in regard to teaching personnel and in regard to equipment, which make it more difficult. Lastly, there are the research problems.

All these faculties depend to some extent for their success on the availability of accommodation and the orderly arrangement of the courses of study. Unless adequate facilities can be given, it will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to maintain the standards which should be maintained in these faculties and which have been maintained heretofore. A graduate of any of our universities can take his place at present with a graduate of any other university anywhere in the world in his own line. Particularly where honours graduates are concerned, that situation has so far been satisfactory. Now there is a dangerous threat and the accommodation problem is inextricably tied up with the safeguarding of ourselves against that danger. On any showing, it would be sad and disastrous if there were any deterioration resulting from our having supplied insufficient facilities to the staffs. I am quite confident the staff can do the job if they have the facilities. That in itself should be sufficient to move us.

There is another point which might appeal to a certain class of mind. It is an equally strong argument and it is this. Nowadays, the faculties of engineering and science are not only university faculties but they are also turning out members of certain professions. Engineering has long since been a profession and science is now ranking itself amongst the learned professions. In these cases, university degrees are accepted as the qualification for practising, so to speak, and in the faculties of medicine, veterinary medicine, engineering and science, and all these faculties, it is very important that our degrees will be recognised abroad as professionally equal to the degrees of other universities.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy is, of course, aware, that I made full provision for veterinary education, both as to staff and as to premises?

Major de Valera

We are dealing with science and art here. I mentioned that only en passant. The point is that eventually one will probably have to look ahead to see what organisation will be like in science and one must realise that the practical repercussions of any deterioration in the standard of our degrees may be serious, as serious as non-recognition of a doctor or engineer. That very practical argument is another reason for spurring us on to solve this problem.

I do not think we should say anything further about it on this Supplementary Estimate other than to advert to it. This is a Supplementary Estimate for a particular purpose and there can be no question about it. We should leave the matter generally for the debate which will occur very shortly on the Estimates as a whole and should adopt this Supplementary Estimate, but it would be a good thing, on the occasion of the main Estimate, to advert to this problem, which may be a serious one for all people interested in these particular faculties.

Mr. O'Malley

The Government should change its tune to a certain extent. I, for one, am not in agreement with them with regard to their apparent policy on this matter of university education in the specific respect dealt with in this Supplementary Estimate. Would the Minister tell us if the Government have any intention of decentralising certain faculties to a certain extent? We know that at present a large percentage of the students in University College, Dublin, come from rural Ireland. The cost of accommodation in Dublin is very high.

Mr. Dillon

Accommodation in Limerick would be very dear, too.

Mr. O'Malley

I was about to come to that. If the Government insist on building a new engineering school or a new college of science in Dublin, that is a departure from their avowed policy of decentralisation. Is this policy of decentralisation purely lip-service? The inevitable result of erecting university buildings in Dublin is an increase in the number of students at University College, Dublin, making Dublin more top-heavy than it is at present. I do not say that the cost of accommodation in Limerick City or in Deputy Corish's city——

Mr. Corish

Thank you for the "city".

Mr. O'Malley

——or anywhere else is very much less than it is in Dublin, but it is cheaper to live out of Dublin. Dublin is the most expensive place in Ireland in which to live at the present time. That will not be contradicted. The Government would be doing a good day's work in bringing these faculties to Limerick or Waterford or in extending University College, Galway. At one time the Engineering School in University College, Galway, was regarded as the best in the British Isles and Ireland. I do not know what its standard is now. Deputy Lindsay will agree with me that it was regarded as the best in Britain or Ireland.

Mr. Lindsay

In the world.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not like to interrupt the Deputy but Deputies are getting away from the Supplementary Estimate, which deals with a specific matter. Most of the remarks that have been made would be more relevant on the main Estimate.

Mr. O'Malley

That is right, Sir. I have made my point. It would be more fitting to concentrate on the existing university colleges, such as Cork or, preferably, Galway or to start a new building in Limerick. If the position at present obtaining in U.C.D. is allowed to continue, it will become a more glorified technical school than it is already. In certain respects U.C.D. is considered to be a glorified technical school. Whether that is a compliment or an insult, I do not know.

Mr. Coburn

The proposal contained in this Supplementary Estimate to spend an additional £22,000 will find favour among all sections of this House. We cannot spend too much money on scientific work and research. I assume that the proposed new university college will be built in the not too distant future. Will it be a complete university college in the sense that it will have a faculty in every subject? If that is so, are we wise in spending money now on the erection of other new university buildings? I should like an assurance from the Minister that there will be no wastage and that there will not be a surplus of buildings when the new building is eventually erected. I would ask the Minister to comment on that point.

Mr. Healy

I join with Deputy O'Malley in asking the Minister to consider the question as to where the various faculties will be situated, particularly in view of the fact that the director of the oil refinery in Cork has made it plain that facilities are not available to him in Cork for the training of students who would be employed in the refinery. I reserve that matter for the main Estimate and merely refer to it now because Deputy O'Malley raised it.

Mr. J. Lynch

I do not want to be drawn by what Deputy O'Malley said.

Mr. Corish

Sensible man.

Mr. J. Lynch

I have my views about decentralisation. They often do not coincide with the views of those who are better fitted than I am to speak on university education and the need for faculties of different kinds to be reasonably near each other.

I shall confine my remarks to two points. I shall deal now with the last point made by Deputy Coburn. No new buildings are in contemplation. The work for which this money is being provided has already been carried out. In the College of Science, there was one part of the building which had a very high roof. By reason of the overcrowding, it was sought to procure some alternative accommodation. The best way of providing that was the provision of a new floor in that particular part of the building. It accommodates 120 extra students, giving them laboratory space and lecture theatre space. There is little doubt that that expenditure is being put to good use and there is no question whatever of money being thrown down the drain, so to speak.

With regard to what Deputy Dillon said, there are two major considerations which would render his suggestion, for the moment, at least, not quite practicable. As Deputy Dillon and the House know, the authorities of U.C.D. have land at Belfield to which they added some considerable extensions in recent years. They contemplated building a new college out there. The major consideration then arose as to whether it was necessary to build a new college out there or whether it was possible to expand, within the limits of their possessions at Earlsfort Terrace or with what acquisitions they might be able to procure in that vicinity. That was the first question to be considered and the major question with which the commission were faced. I have not adverted to the report because I am still awaiting the report on University College, Galway.

The second consideration, then, was what some Deputies here have expressed concern about, that is, the centralisation of all faculties in Dublin or the making of Dublin so much more attractive than the other two colleges. It was decided to submit, also, to the commission the question of the needs of these other two colleges.

For these two reasons—and I am sure Deputy Dillon would agree—it was not practicable, therefore, to offer Dublin a sum in a particular year— this year and next year—so as to go ahead with whatever extensions they wanted, because it would first have to be decided whether it would be better to build in Belfield or to try to expand on what they have in Earlsfort Terrace and what they could acquire. Therefore, until that question was resolved, it was impossible to permit them to go ahead.

I expect the final point of the report to be presented in a matter of weeks. It will then have to be presented to the Government who will examine it and make up their minds and come to the House to procure sanction, ultimately, for the very heavy capital outlay—several millions—which will be involved and which will have to be spread over a long term of years, not because of economy but because of the physical difficulties that would be met in the provision of these extra buildings and the extra accommodation, not only in Dublin, but in Cork and Galway as well.

Mr. Dillon

At what stage is it proposed to publish these reports, for I foresee that, once the Government have them, every sort of rumour will circulate as to their contents? Will it be possible at an early stage to make them available to the House, even while the Government are still deliberating?

Mr. J. Lynch

Either from lack of knowledge or from lack of experience, I am afraid I could not answer that question offhand.

Mr. Dillon

Perhaps the Minister would look into it between now and the main Estimate.

Vote put and agreed to.