Vol. 244 No. 5
asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce if he will make a statement in relation to bread and flour prices having regard to widespread protests from many sections of the community regarding any proposed further increase in the price of bread.
111.
andDr. O'Connell asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce whether he has been informed of a recent report that the price of the loaf of bread will rise by between 2d and 4d; if this is so, by what calculations the increase is justified; and if it is in accordance with the Taoiseach's statement that 7 per cent will be the maximum price increase permissible this year.
112
asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce if there is any foundation for recent reports that an increase in bread prices is pending; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
113.
asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce if he will take immediate steps to prevent any further increase in bread and flour prices.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 110, 111, 112 and 113 together.
I have received one application in respect of the price of bread, on which I have not yet made a decision. I have also read newspaper reports of the possibility of a further application in respect of the price of bread but I have not received this application. I have received no application for an increase in the price of flour. Any applications for increased prices are considered in relation to proof of increased costs. In considering increased labour costs I will disallow any increase awarded in 1970 in excess of 30/- per week. There are, however, other costs besides labour costs and in this connection I would point out that the Taoiseach did not say that 7 per cent would be the maximum price increase permissible this year.
What does the Minister mean by the statement that there are costs other than the 7 per cent, which is the escape hatch the Taoiseach allowed for the Minister to allow unprecedented increases in the prices of essential commodities?
I do not know what the Deputy means. If he were a little more precise I might be able to answer him.
Is the Minister trying to get off the hook now by taking the 7 per cent fixed by the Taoiseach so that in relation to coal and other essential commodities, he may be able to allow a greater increase?
I do not know what the Deputy is basing his allegation on but it is completely groundless. As I have said in reply to two questions, the Taoiseach did not say that a price increase above 7 per cent would not be allowed. What he said was that in cases of applications for price increases, in so far as they were based on increased labour costs arising in 1970, he would disallow any element in that regard exceeding 7 per cent or 30/- per week. That is clear enough.
The Minister has on other occasions allowed increases in relation to bread. Can he tell us which factors other than labour entered into it?
In the case of bread, there is the question of the price of wheat as one of these factors. Other costs involved would include electricity, gas and the various overheads which are accepted by any business.
So we can accept that there will be a rise on these terms?
May I point out again that I have one application before me on which I have not given a decision and that the other alleged increase applications I have only read about in the newspapers—I have none in my office?
Which exactly is the Minister going to apply—30/- or 7 per cent?
Either.
Whichever is the greater?
Yes.
You must reduce the wages factor down to something. Will you decrease it to 30/- or will you apply the 7 per cent? Which one will you use?
If the 7 per cent is greater than 30/- it would be reduced to 7 per cent. Whichever is the greater. In case it is not known, and it should be, it is also my intention in applying this, to operate the 30/- or the 7 per cent not only to male adult workers but also to female workers and juveniles—to operate it to all categories.
Is the Minister aware that unless, broadly speaking, industry and business generally get the increases given in wages, many businesses will go bankrupt?
This would seem to be enlarging the scope of a particular question.
I do not wish to extend the scope of Question Time but I should like to say that if what Deputy Dockrell has said is true then those negotiating those agreements should bear it in mind before they conclude such agreements.
Surely that would mean that large volumes of the working force would be on strike.
The Chair points out again the difficulties we encounter by enlarging the scope of questions.
Twenty-three per cent to the paint workers.
I am grateful to the Minister for the information that he has received an application for an increase in the price of bread but will he assure us that there will be a prices advisory committee set up to check through any justification sought by the bakers and the flourmillers for the increase? I know the Minister did it before. Can we have such an assurance? Can the Minister confirm that the price of the commodity is ex-factory which bears no relation to the price retailers charge? Indeed, from that point of view, the 7 per cent is a bit of a fraud.
In regard to Deputy Desmond's second supplementary, I do not think the Deputy is correct in what he said. In regard to the first point, I have one application before me in regard to the price of bread, not in relation to flour. From my preliminary examination, it does not seem to me to be appropriate to have another inquiry such as was held previously and on which the Deputy acted. It would not add to our information.
Which means you will concede the increase?
Why does the Deputy say that?
Usually you do.
It is a pity Deputy Browne would not listen to the Federation of Irish Industries attacking me for not increasing prices, for restricting their profits. This is utterly untrue and Deputy Browne should not be spreading this kind of nonsense. If there are widespread claims for wages which are conceded, what does the Deputy think will happen to costs? Let us not make fools of ourselves. What I have said makes it clear that it does not follow that because there would not be a price investigation publicly by a committee that the claim will be conceded. The claim will be examined and if it is helpful to have such an investigation we will have it.
What is the full price increase?
It is not normal to give that information. I will not depart from the normal procedure.
The Minister concedes that the cost of living has gone up by 24 per cent in the past two years?
Why?
No profit control.
This is not true.
Because Deputy Colley has been a failure as Minister for Industry and Commerce.
Question No. 114. We must proceed with Question Time. Other Deputies are waiting for answers to questions. We must try to make progress with the questions. I want to point out to all sides of the House that Deputies are engaging in debate at the moment rather than in Question Time.
114.
asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce the number of increases in bread and flour prices that have been sanctioned by his Department since March, 1957.
Since 1957 I have indicated on four occasions that I would raise no objection to certain increases in bread prices and I also indicated on four occasions that I would raise no objection to certain increases in flour prices.
Is it not a fact——
What is the Deputy's point? Four increases since 1957? What is he talking about? Does he know that Deputy Desmond, who served on the last investigatory body, went into all the details and agreed that the increase was necessary?
I am still very unhappy about it.
I want to ask a supplementary question.
Do not try to fool the public. Be rational.
The Minister has no grounds for being angry with me —none whatever.
I am never angry with anybody who intends to be rational about these things and not fool the public.
I will ask the Minister a rational question. Is it true that the price of bread is now nearly three times what it was in March, 1956? Is that true or false?
I could not tell the Deputy, offhand.
The Minister could not tell me offhand? The Minister, living out in Rathgar, in my own salubrious area, is not concerned about the price of bread? I can tell the Minister. It was 9d in 1957. It is now 2/- for the 2-lb loaf.
Next question which is in the name of Deputy David Andrews.
Then the Minister expects wages to stand still.
Who expects wages to stand still? What is the Deputy talking about? Stop trying to fool the public. That is what the Deputy is doing.
Question No. 115.
And there must be wage stability, and so on.
You have contributed something to this situation that exists. You must have some responsibility.
