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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 25 Jan 1984

Vol. 347 No. 4

Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Bill, 1983: Second Stage.

Limerick East): I move: “That the Bill be now read a Second Time.”

The main purpose of this Bill is to bring about certain changes in the law that are made necessary by a judgment of the Supreme Court given in November 1980. The case involved was Gilsenan V. Foundry House Investments Limited and Rathmines Properties Limited and so far it has not been reported. Deputies may have heard the judgment referred to as the “Gilsenan” judgment.

The judgment bears on the determination of the rent that is payable under a "reversionary" lease, that is to say a renewal of a ground rent lease. The court found in effect that the existing statutory provisions for determining such a rent are unworkable. It will, I think, be helpful if I outline the background.

Ground rent tenants have, in general, the right either to buy out the ground landlord and acquire the fee simple, or to renew their leases for 99-year terms. Where the lease is renewed the rent payable remains a ground rent. However, it is related to the current open-market rent of the property in question and is usually very different from the rent payable under the previous lease, granted perhaps a century ago or even longer. The legislation provides a formula which relates the new rent to the rent which, in the opinion of the court, a willing lessee not already in occupation would give and a willing lessor would take for the land comprised in the reversionary lease. The new lease is, as I have said, for a 99-year term. The Supreme court, in arriving at the judgment I have mentioned, had had evidence that freely-negotiated leases of that kind are no longer entered into, that is to say, that a lessor would not now willingly grant a lease for a term as long as 99 years at a fixed rent. Without provision for rent reviews, no such willing lessor is to be found nor can any such rent be determined and on that basis the court found that the formula was inoperable.

There are two main consequences of that judgment. The first and obvious one is that — following "Gilsenan"— the courts are unable to determine the terms of the renewed or "reversionary" lease. Of course, the parties themselves can agree these terms but in a case where that agreement is not forthcoming, the tenant cannot exercise his statutory right to obtain the "reversionary" lease.

The other consequence is that — again in the absence of agreement between the parties — a ground rent tenant who wants to buy out the fee simple rather than get a "reversionary" lease cannot implement his right of purchase unless his lease has more than 15 years to run. The reason for this is that, where the lease has less than 15 years to run or where it has already expired, one of the considerations — perhaps the most important consideration — that bears on determination of the purchase price is the rent that would be reserved under a "reversionary" lease. Since as matters now stand that rent cannot be determined except by agreement between the parties, the purchase price of the fee simple likewise cannot be determined except by agreement in the cases I have mentioned.

It will be clear from what I have just said that the essential weakness in the system which was struck down by the Supreme Court was its lack of relevance to current market conditions. The obvious change that is necessary in order to permit the rent under a "reversionary" lease to be related to current market conditions is, of course, to introduce provision for reviews of the rent payable under such a lease. Consultation has established that there is fairly general agreement among those professionally concerned with the matter that the review period should be five years, that is to say, that the rent payable under a reversionary lease should be open to review, at the instance of either lessor or lessee, at intervals of not less than five years. Section 3 of the Bill proposes a change of this kind for future reversionary leases. The review of five years is the same as the review period that already applies to the rent payable under a renewed occupational tenancy.

The House will note that section 5 of the Bill proposes a similar change in respect of any sporting leases that are granted in the future. The law as it stands — in section 5 of the Landlord and Tennant (Amendment) Act, 1971 — already contains limited provision for reviews of the rent payable under sporting leases which, like reversionary leases, run for terms of 99 years. Where the terms of a sporting lease are fixed by the court the rent is subject to review, at the option of the lessor, after 24 years and thereafter at intervals of not less than 25 years and the rent itself is a "fair rent" that is determined in the light of a number of considerations.

The judgment of the Supreme Court with which we are concerned was not directly concerned with determination of rents under sporting leases. However, it is a possible inference from that judgment that no rent could be fair that could not be altered over such a lengthy period. Indeed, since a sporting lease may in certain circumstances be obtained up to 15 years before it commences to run, the rent initially fixed might stand for as long as 39 years from the time it was determined and the possibility arises that the rent-fixing provisions of the legislation could be held to be inoperable in relation to sporting leases also. Accordingly section 5 of the Bill provides for rent review periods of five years, at the instance of either lessor or lessee, in any future sporting leases whose rents fall to be fixed by the court. Existing sporting leases do not come within the scope of these proposals. It is reasonable to take the view that interference with existing leases is not warranted in the absence of a definite indication that the terms of such leases cannot be operated.

It may well be asked — indeed it has been asked — if determination of the rent under a reversionary lease has to become so cumbersome an affair, why the right to a reversionary lease should not simply be abolished. Why not leave ground rent tenants with the single remedy, that is to buy out the fee simple which, of course, they would have to do if the right to a renewed lease was abolished? The landlord and tenant code would be simplified; a step would be taken towards simplifying titles to land, and the persons concerned would be saved the worry and expense of frequent rent reviews.

This question has been considered carefully and full weight has been given to representations that have been made for that abolition. The conclusion that I have reached and that has been accepted by the Government is that, on balance, the right to a reversionary lease should be preserved. This is a right which certain tenants may find preferable to purchase of the fee simple and such a freedom of choice must be given some value.

Provision for the grant of reversionary leases would in any event continue to be necessary in special cases for example, ground rent leases made by harbour authorities where the right of purchase does not apply. However, the most important reason for preserving the right to a reversionary lease is the objection in principle that arises to the abolition of an existing legal right, with the consequence that the alternative right to buy out would become less a right than a matter of practical necessity.

I have referred to the bearing that the relevant judgment of the Supreme Court has on determination of the price of the fee simple where ground rent lessees are buying out and where their leases are expiring or have already expired. On this account, it was necessary to settle completely new provisions in the law. As I have said, the rent that would be reserved in a reversionary lease has hitherto been the most important consideration in determining purchase price in such cases. The introduction of five-year rent reviews under future reversionary leases raises an immediate problem as to how purchase price can be related to the rents in any objective manner. In fact this was quite impossible and a practical alternative had to be found.

Perhaps I might give an example as to how this difficulty would arise. Take a case where a tenant exercises his right to get a reversionary lease before termination of his present lease and where that lease would not commence to run for more than five years, that is, where the ground rent purchaser's existing lease has more than five years to run. In such a case no one can say what the commencing rent would be under that reversionary lease. A further difficulty, amounting almost to impossibility, is that of providing an objective basis for determining the present capital value, for the purpose of purchase, of a rent that is subject to unknowable variations every five years.

Because of these difficulties it was necessary to find some new basis for determining purchase price in these cases. The solution that is proposed is set out in section 7 of the Bill, specifically in subsection (4). This proposes that, where the purchaser's lease has expired or where a rent review is already due, the purchase price will normally be one-eighth of the current fee simple market value of the property in question, subject to the making of adjustments and allowances of the same kind as are made in determining the rent to be reserved in a reversionary lease. This closely parallels the existing law under which reversionary rents fall to be determined by the courts on the basis that they be one-eight of the open market rent of the property. In other words the proposed new formula provides, in terms of a purchase price, the same division of the property as between landlord and tenant as the old formula provides in terms of a rent.

At present the actual rent payable under a reversionary lease excludes any rental element arising from the value of the lessee's goodwill or from the lessee's own improvements. Similar exclusions are provided in the new formula in relation to purchase price. Furthermore, the rent under a reversionary lease is based on the rent of the property in its present use and with its existing buildings. In other words, that rent excludes any element attributable to development value and this is again reflected in the formula. One or two other technical provisions are also being included which we can explore, as appropriate, on Committee Stage and which are likewise designed faithfully to reflect, in terms of purchase price, the provisions of the law as it stands that bear on the matter.

I noted earlier that, under the law as it stands, the rent that would be reserved in a reversionary lease is the most important consideration that bears on purchase price where a ground rent lessee is buying out and where his lease is expiring, or has already expired. However, it is not the only consideration: there is quite a list of matters to which regard has to be had in determining price and these matters are again being listed in the Bill. However, as a drafting matter it was simpler to provide for the repeal and the re-enactment with amendments of the existing price provisions as contained in section 17 of the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (No. 2) Act, 1978, than to seek to amend section 17 and that is what the Bill proposes.

Certain other changes in section 17 are proposed, some of which I should mention now. It is proposed that the purchase price of the fee simple should in all cases be determined by reference to circumstances obtaining at the date the purchase application is made rather than being left to depend — at least in some cases — on the date of a final judicial determination where price is in dispute.

The new price formula that I have described is being applied not only to cases where the relevant lease is expiring or has expired but also to cases where a rent review is due within the 15 years. The reason is, of course, that where a rent review is due the price of the fee simple is influenced in the same way as if the lease were expiring. Finally, it is proposed that in the determination of purchase price in cases where the new formula will apply but where there is yet some time to run to the expiration of the relevant lease or to the rent review, as the case may be, that length of time should specifically be taken into account. This provision is in subsection (9) of section 7.

Deputies who are not altogether familiar with the landlord and tenant code may have some difficulty in relating the proposal I have just mentioned — in subsection (9) — to the sliding scale that is provided in the preceding subsection — subsection (8) — and a word of explanation may be in order. Subsection (8) represents mainly the re-enactment of provisions in section. 17 of the 1978 No. 2 Act, the provisions that provide for the determination of price according to a sliding scale. That price depends on the length of time to run under the lease at the existing rent and the scale goes from the lowest point — where the lease has more than 15 years to run and where the provisions for the formula maximum price apply — to the highest point, where the lease has run out or, as may be the case from now on, where a rent review is due. Subsection (9) on the other hand, while it also concerns cases where there is yet some time to run to expiration of the lease or to a rent review, yet concerns cases of a different kind, that is cases— business properties, for example— where the formula maximum price in subsection (5) does not apply. In such cases, therefore, we still have the high point of the scale, the point where a lease has run out or the time for a rent review has arrived, but we have no low point. In other words, no matter how many years there are to run on the lease of a business property, there is no formula for purchase price at the lower end of the scale. Accordingly, subsection (9) simply provides that where the lease has run to within 15 years of expiration or of a rent review the length of time still to run is to be taken into account in determining purchase price.

The proposals in the Bill that I have so far discussed are essentially contained in sections 3, 5 and 7. These sections comprise what I may call the heart of the Bill, that is, the proposals for rent reviews in reversionary leases and the proposals for a new price formula in certain cases of purchase of the fee simple.

The Bill also proposes, in sections 4, 8 and 13, a number of provisions ancillary to those proposals of which the most important — in sections 4 and 13— are designed to cater for cases where leasehold renewal or purchase of the fee simple has been held up in consequence of the Supreme Court judgment on foot of which the legislation arises. In some such cases at least it is possible that rights of renewal or of purchase could have been carried away by the passage of time alone and without default on the part of the party concerned. The Bill provides a further period of 12 months within which such rights may still be exercised following the coming into operation of the legislation and the removal of the difficulties that have imposed the delays.

In particular, section 13 of the Bill caters for any cases where a ground rent lessee, who would have preferred to buy out the fee simple, may have felt himself constrained to apply instead for a reversionary lease rather than see his lease run out and with it, perhaps, his right of purchase. Where such proceedings have not actually been concluded the lessee is being given the option of buying out instead, subject to recoupment of the other parties' costs. A 12-month limit is again being proposed in respect of this relief.

The Bill affords an opportunity to propose a number of miscellaneous improvements in the landlord and tenant code that have come to notice. Most of these are of a rather minor nature and since they would arise for discussion more appropriately at Committee Stage I think I need not go into them now. However, there are three such proposals of sufficient importance to warrant mention at this stage and perhaps I should refer to them at least briefly before I close. One — in section 9 — amounts to the recognition of a new class of ground rent tenant, or perhaps a better name would be a new sub-class, for the change that is proposed is not a great one. What section 9 proposes in effect is that where a yearly tenant can prove that the building on his property were erected by himself or his predecessors, and where otherwise he satisfies the necessary conditions, he will be recognised as a ground rent tenant, a recognition that carries with it the right to buy out the fee simple even though his yearly rent is not less than the rateable valuation of the property.

The second change is in section 14 which proposes an amendment of section 4 of the 1980 Landlord and Tenant Act. Section 4 of the 1980 Act while declaring the State to be exempt from the legislation nevertheless extends limited rights under the Act to persons to whom rights had already accrued before the State authority concerned became landlord. Such persons retain their right to a renewed tenancy, on one occasion only, and their right to compensation for any improvements already carried out.

It has come to notice that an anomaly could arise in applying the provisions of section 4 of the 1980 Act in a case where one State authority took over as landlord from another State authority. In such a case a tenant who had rights previously could acquire them, contrary to the intentions of section 4 of the 1980 Act. Section 14 of the Bill proposes, accordingly, that the rights I have mentioned will be preserved only in a case where a State authority becomes landlord of a tenanted property in which no State authority had any previous interest as landlord.

The last change is in section 15. It is proposed that section 15 will replace section 24 of the Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Act, 1980. Section 24 of the 1980 Act provides for rent reviews under renewed occupational tenancies and the new proposals mean that following such a rent review the reviewed rent will run, not from the date the reviewed rent is fixed but from the date the rent review proceedings are commenced, provided the previous rent has run for the necessary minimum of five years. The change is being introduced in the interest of fairness. It could happen, for example, if protracted negotiations for a rent review were followed by protracted litigation, that a considerable time could elapse between the initiation of a rent review and the final determination of that rent of review.

As the law stands in section 24 of the Act of 1980, the reviewed rent could in such a case commence to run only from the date of the determination, even though that date is outside the control of either party to the tenancy. Under the proposals in section 15 of the Bill five years will continue to be the minimum period for which a rent will run before any alternation upon review. Likewise, if there is delay in initiating a review, the operation of the reviewed rent may be delayed for that reason as under the present law. However, that operation will no longer be subject to delay because of procedural delays. In principle the reviewed rent will run from the date of the review notice rather than from the date the rent is finally determined and the time for service of the review notice is being regulated accordingly. These amended provisions are also being provided in relation to the proposed rent reviews under future reversionary leases and sporting leases that I have described.

One thing that I ought, perhaps, to make clear is that, while certain amendments of the landlord and tenant code are being proposed over and above the changes that are made necessary by the judgement in the Gilsenan case, the Bill does not deal with ground rent purchase in any general way. In particular, the abolition of ground rents in any sense approaching that of confiscating the property of ground landlords is a matter that is outside the scope of this Bill.

This concludes my account of the main proposals in the Bill and I ask that it be given a Second Reading.

We welcome the Bill and we will facilitate the Minister by agreeing to a speedy passage of it through the House. The Bill deals with anomalies which have arisen in practice since the introduction of the amending Landlord and Tenant Bill in 1980. They are generally of a technical and minor nature. One of the problems that has arisen is in relation to ascertaining what the gross rent should be, and though the Act includes the definition of "gross rent" as the rent which in the opinion of the court a willing lessee not already in occupation would give and a willing lessor would take, in practice it become virtually impossible to ascertain what the gross rent should be, especially on the basis of a rent for 99 years, during which inflation could be running at any level. Therefore, the prediction would be particularly difficult.

Consequently, it makes good sense to introduce this Bill and in it a provision for a five-year rent review of reversionary leasehold rents. The Bill will make it straightforward for the courts to fix reversionary leases. That was one of the major difficulties that arose in practice and we welcome the ironing out of that difficulty because I understand that that provision had become virtually unworkable.

Sporting leases are referred to. It should be said clearly that, having regard to the nature of reversionary leases and the need for clarification, in the case of sporting leases it was necessary to amend the law to provide for a five-year rent review. It is important to note that the proposed changes in this respect will apply only to the future fixing by the courts of the rents attached to sporting leases. Therefore, it should not prejudice clubs who have their rents fixed already. In case any of the sporting clubs would be worried, it is desirable to make it clear that the Bill will not affect leases already set until the rents come to be reviewed.

In relation to the purchase of the fee simple, the Bill does not effect any major changes in the existing legal position and therefore there is no reason why we should not accept this simply as a clarification of and improvement on existing law. However, it is important to say in relation to fee simple that a great deal of progress has been made and we have come to the time when we should bring to an end ground rents on domestic dwellings. New ground rents may not be created on new dwellings since May 1978 and evictions have been outlawed for non-payment of ground rents since 1 August 1978. It was established recently that the Statute of Limitations, after six years, applies to ground rents. Nevertheless, there are still serious problems in this matter. Most people agree that the system was fedual and consequently all of us here would like to see it brought to an end.

At the end of his speech the Minister referred to the undesirability of participating in confiscations, but as we go on in time we find changes taking place which are bringing about a position that the people in general want to see. Still, it is not an acceptable situation. Five thousand people have appeared in court in relation to ground rents and this demonstrates massive concern and resistance. There are millions of pounds of ground rent arrears, and more than 70 people have been sentenced to prison for non-payment of ground rents. There is still a serious problem to be overcome and I should like to see the Minister bringing forward soon proposals to end totally ground rents on domestic dwellings. The Minister should also examine the matter of a termination date.

Many of these houses are in local authority areas and I cannot see any reason why we cannot have a termination date in respect of such houses. It is merely a question of the Government taking a decision to do so. I am referring to private houses built on land supplied by local authorities, like large housing areas in Tallaght, Donaghmede and various others throughout the country. The Minister should bring forward urgently measures to provide a termination date in relation to such houses. It would not involve any question of upsetting the Constitution — it is merely a question of a decision by Government.

The Minister should work urgently to introduce a termination date for other ground rents. We on this side are anxious to see an end to all ground rents, within the terms of the Constitution. Examining and analysing the Constitution is being done now in greater detail than heretofore in relation to the achieving of our objectives in this regard. This is a very technical Bill, but necessary and worthwhile. We will support it at this stage and generally. We are anxious, however, that the Minister will proceed urgently with the preparation of measures to bring about the termination of all ground rents.

I, too, welcome the Bill and hope that it will remove a number of anomalies the resolution of which heretofore has ended up in the courts. I do not propose to go on for long but I have knowledge of a couple of cases in regard to non-residential property where leases were entered into and where dramatic changes occurred in the market over the years with consequent considerable difficulties in relation to setting fair rents. Ultimately, such cases appeared in the courts for resolution.

Indeed, this Bill is before us as a result of a court decision. In the sixties leases were agreed on the basis of fairly nominal rents in comparison with those obtaining in the late seventies and at the moment. I have one experience of long discussions which were resolved, fortunately, without going to court. There were obvious anomalies from the point of view of both the lessor and the lessee. I hope this Bill will remove any difficulties such as those.

I spoke about fluctuations in the market that can have a bearing on either the lessor or the lessee. The market could have a considerable bearing on what the lessor or the leasee might be willing to get by way of rent or pay by way of rent. The Bill could also have some implications for local authorities, particularly when they enter into 99-year leases. Quite a number of local authorities are doing that now. Some of them have had great difficulty in arriving at what would be considered an equitable system from the point of view of guaranteeing the rights of the local authority or the lessor and also the rights of the particular sporting group who propose to lease the ground or premises. I hope the effect of this particular Bill will be to iron out the matters of contention that have arisen over the last few years in that area, that it will be beneficial to the sporting groups and recreational groups involved and at the same time will ensure that the rights of the local authorities are kept to the fore.

Reference was made to ground rents generally. The type of ground rent which immediately comes to mind is the residential property ground rent. I was interested in hearing what the Opposition spokesman, Deputy Woods, had to say in relation to ground rents owned by local authorities. It is well to refer to the more general ground rents because there has been considerable discussion over the last few years in relation to private property and private development and the great amount of trauma which has been caused by that. I am aware of the constitutional difficulties that can arise if there is abolition of ground rents and I accept that. I also accept that no future ground rents can be created along those lines. From time to time we see various lobbies coming forward with pleas to abolish ground rents. This is a laudable proposal but how practical would that proposal be having regard to the constitutional requirements? I feel that sometimes politicians err slightly in that area as they perhaps mislead the public into believing that in all cases it is possible for them to abolish ground rents overnight. This is not so easily done. If it is ever found that under the Constitution we are capable of completely removing ground rents from residential property we would all be in favour of it. I would like to have it clarified well in advance if it is possible to do this under the Constitution.

The Bill is an extremely technical one and arose like a lot of our legislation because of a decision by the courts. I would like to see not only in relation to this Bill but in relation to many other Bills, a speeding up of the introduction of legislation to a far greater extent so that we would not have to respond so readily to decisions being taken by the courts. This applies to many Bills besides this one. We often see quotations in relation to the various Acts dating back to the last century and earlier where we are now operating legislation which in many cases is a few hundred years out of date. I believe a very good case can be made for spearheading a drive to up-date the greater bulk of our legislation particularly in relation to matters like this Landlord and Tenant (Amendment) Bill and in relation to all elements of legislation where the public are affected in their everyday life by Acts which in many cases are 200 years and more old. We should make a special effort this year to do something about that. I would regard, from my experience of dealing with constituents' problems, the five-year rent reviews as very useful. I hope this will eliminate a lot of ground for the acrimony which has arisen in the past.

There are a few brief comments which I would like to make on this very technical Bill. While any amendments to anything to do with landlords and tenants which up-dates, as the last speaker said, very ancient legislation are of benefit, there are some submissions which came into our party and some points of a technical nature which we have undertaken to make on Second Stage so that they will be of benefit to the Minister when we take the Committee Stage next week.

Like my colleague, the spokesman on Justice, I believe the Minister is examining the Landlord and Tenant Acts in relation to domestic ground rents. I believe there is a change in attitude and emphasis to what there was when we debated those matters in 1979 and 1980. Perhaps what we thought then was unconstitutional is not so impossible now. I hope that in a short period we can have amendments to the 1980 Act or even a new Bill to allow the end to what is a very out-dated penal system of paying ground rents on domestic premises. I never believed it was unconstitutional but is was something we accepted three years ago because we were getting 80 per cent of what a lot of people had fought for. People should now go back and perhaps look for the other 20 per cent.

Fianna Fáil welcome the provision for five-year rent reviews in both reversionary and sporting leases as well as the rationalisation of the provision of rent reviews. The last speaker has made the point about the anomalies in the legislation and the difficulties this causes. I am sure this will help the legal people who deal with these matters. Some of the submissions we have got put forward some objections to the principle of the arbitrary percentage being used to establish the rental value of the site element of a property. The arguments put forward to us are in relation to the terms of subsection 4 (d) of section 7 of the Bill which provides that any addition to the value deriving from the computation of substantial rebuilding of the scheme or development shall be disregarded. They state that it appears that where a person is acquiring the fee simple of a substantial area of land and where the lease is expired or the rent is due for review, it would not be possible to assess the true open market value of the property, as any potential rebuilding or development value is not to be taken into consideration. They claim that the provision is inequitable and denies the owner his property right. Furthermore, they say it is unreasonable that a landlord should not receive the true value of his interest in the property. They feel that this subsection should at least be amended. We will be very glad to hear the Minister's comments on Committee Stage. I would not be in favour of protecting landlords but since I spent so much time criticising them on the Rent Restrictions Act it is only fair that I make the point when it is put to me.

We got this from two or three sources. They contend that there is a substantial anomaly between the contents of subsections (5) and (7) of section 7 of the Bill. Subsection (5) provides that where the land is not used for business and is held under a contract of yearly tenancy or under yearly tenancy arising by operation of law and does not exceed one acre in area, the purchase price should be calculated on the basis of the statutory multiplier and the rent payable during the year immediately preceding the date of application, whereas section 7(7) of the Bill states that the above calculation shall not apply to a case where, whether under the lease or by virtue of the operation of a statute, an increased rent is or may become payable within 15 years after the date of application. The rent of a yearly tenancy must always be subject to the landlord serving notice to quit. Therefore, the rent would be reassessed within a matter of months. Thus it would not appear appropriate that a yearly tenancy or statutory tenancy should be retained under section 7(5). It would appear that this should be included under section 7 (4) in conjunction with expired leases or situations where the rent is due for review.

We have got this from at least three sources of legal background. They are documented and I will be glad to give the notes to the Minister. We seem to have an argument when we say that rather than rationalising many of the anomalies, perhaps we are only creating others.

Section 14 of the Bill appears to be an enlargement of the Act of 1980. It seems unreasonable that the State should have statutory rights in its capacity as a tenant and that it shall not be bound by the relevant Acts when it is a landlord. All the problems we have had under the Rent Restrictions Acts regarding discrimination should be avoided. These people are of the opinion that the provision is inconsistent and inequitable and that it discriminates against the tenants, particularly when the Rent Restrictions Acts come into effect. I do not claim to be an expert on a technical Bill such as this, but I ask the Minister to look at these sections in an effort to rationalise some of the anomalies in the Landlord and Tenant Acts.

Landlord and tenant legislation comes up continually in court cases concerning private evictions and in cases dealing with very old leases and old deeds concerning houses where the tenants are being subjected to massive increases. Any anomalies and ambiguities in the Acts in relation to that should be looked at before we finalise Committee Stage. I ask the Minister to examine those and if necessary to bring in some amendments on Committee Stage.

It is important that the problems we have faced in the ground rents area be tackled. As the Minister said, it is quite anomalous that settlements in these cases referred to contracts willingly entered into when such contracts are no longer being entered into. It is good that we have tackled this.

A problem must arise in the case of people seeking to buy out ground rents on leases which have under 15 years to run. At that stage people become very worried about ground rent because of the posibility of high prices. The Minister is more or less proposing that the settlement terms be based on one-eighth of the current value of the property. I am not very well informed on the subject, but it seems that this is pushing the price very high, and that is worrying for people whose leases have only 15 years to run, because of ignorance or difficulty in identifying where ownership rights lie. In my constituency I have had experience of the problem of pyramid ownership of ground rent. In one case one would think that one had reached the end of the line when a set of property institutions were identified; then it was discovered that they referred to three others whose consent had to be sought and on identification of those three it was found that matters went further back up the line. This problem is arising in the whole ground rents area. Although the Act of 1978 offered a cheap remedy in that one could go to the Land Registry and pay their fee, it did not resolve this problem of finding where the right of ownership of ground rent lay.

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy, but the ground rents issue is not involved in this Bill. It is outside the scope of the Bill. I allow only passing reference to it.

I would have thought that the question of leases with under 15 years to go would have brought up the issue of multiple title.

I ask you to contain yourself in that area. The general ground rents issue is not included in the Bill and the Minister made that very clear in his speech.

I am satisfied of that, but the same problem is likely to arise in the area of reversionary leases. Presumably you would have to identify where exactly ownership lay in order to resolve this, and the re-letting of the lease will create problems. I draw the Minister's attention to it. It may have wider implications in the ground rent area, but it seems that some solution is needed other than the relatively expensive one of going to arbitration.

On the question of trying to find an alternative to market value, the lead given under the ground rent legislation of referring to Government stock could have been considered in this context rather than considering the market value of the property. It would seem to give a more equitable settlement.

The Minister refers to the possibility of reversionary leases as being an alternative. That strikes me as being a more sensible approach. The Minister draws our attention to an objection in principle that we are abolishing an existing legal right. However, as I understand it, the tenant in this case has the option of accepting the reversionary lease or buying out the fee simple. We have already abolished the legal right because the tenant has the option, and by narrowing the tenant's option to just a single remedy we have simplified the whole procedure. I question that decision. It may be that I do not understand fully the legal niceties of the case.

I would like to hear the Minister elaborate further on why the one-eighth value of the current market value was chosen and what implications it will have for tenants. It seems to be pushing up the price.

We welcome the moves in the sporting area. I thank the Minister for bringing in this Bill.

This Bill is extremely necessary in view of the anomaly which has been shown up through the actions of the Supreme Court. This Bill highlights the whole area of taking over a law which was enacted here when we were under British rule. It emphasises once again the need to get rid of our ground rents system. I realise that we cannot go into the area of ground rents, but as long as the system exists these anomalies will continue, although I imagine they are being eliminated. In 1978 the Minister at the time brought in the Bill allowing tenants to buy out their ground rents in an effort to do away with one of these anomalies and ensure that people would not find themselves being evicted from properties which 99 years ago their families took over as residential properties. It was because the 1978 Bill did not provide for everyone that this Bill is before us today.

It is easy to be wise after the event but I suppose that back in 1883 when our grandparents or great grandparents were signing leases, the word `inflation' had not been heard of with the result that there was no provision for rent reviews. It would be wrong of us to expect a landlord who is living totally on income from ground rents not to try, as the end of a 99 year lease was approaching, to increase the value of the lease. One can say that the whole system is inequitable but there are people who are depending totally on incomes from ground rents and they are entitled to enjoy ground rents at today's terms. People could not possibly have foreseen 99 years ago that the price of property and land would have increased to such an extent. In the case of a business, the situation is covered because a business can obtain a 35-year lease with a five-year review of rent. Therefore, the anomaly will not arise in so far as the renting of business properties is concerned but in the light of discussions that have taken place in the past few days concerning the amount of office space that is available, perhaps this is an area that we could look at at some time in the future.

This legislation is another instance to some extent of the Supreme Court leading the Legislature. I appeal to the Minister to carry out a review of the entire area of landlord-tenant legislation so that we do not appear always to be seen to be reacting to what is happening in the courts. Another example of that situation was one in which I was involved to the extent of being on the special committee set up to deal with a Bill concerning rent reviews and there have been other instances in which the Supreme Court have forced us into bringing in legislation rather speedily. That is not a good way to run our business. It would be preferable that we considered anomalies at times when there was not pressure being brought to bear on us, because if we wait until there is such pressure we are being forced into a situation of helping people who are in difficulty.

As Deputy Bruton was speaking I thought of a situation in my constituency where there is a whole area that cannot be developed because of the absence of legal title, deeds and so on. I refer to the village of Portmarnock. Because the relevant documentation is not available that area cannot be developed. The identity of the landlords is not known. They have probably long since left the country. Portmarnock is an area that is badly in need of developing. In cases in which we cannot proceed to develop land because of the absence of a landlord there should be provision in some legislation to allow a local authority to take over that land and develop it properly. It is because we do not have such provision that the village of Portmarnock is without proper facilities and is a village with derelict sites all along the main street. That is the sort of anomaly that must be sorted out.

It is against the whole principle of leasing in the sense that families are enabled to provide homes for themselves and for their heirs that when leases expire the property can revert back to a landlord who will not have spent any money in maintaining the property apart from the cost involved in having a solicitor act on his behalf to send out demands yearly for ground rents. In many cases these landlords prefer to remain anonymous. The people who own the properties are the ones who spend money maintaining them, so it is very wrong that after 99 years property should revert to a landlord. There are clauses in most legislation in this area that prevent people from doing certain things with their properties. In other words, a landlord exercises a veto despite the fact that that veto carries no obligations so far as he is concerned. Once an estate, for instance, is taken over by a local authority they assume responsibility for it thereby relieving the ground landlord of his responsibility. This is an inequitable situation but I am glad the Minister is stopping that gap which in many cases prevented elderly people from being thrown out of their homes.

Obviously the ideal situation would be that people with only a short amount of the time of the lease remaining would be able to buy out the fee simple. That would prevent problems arising in the future. However, I am disappointed that so few people have sought to avail of the extension of the 1978 Act to buy out their ground rents. Perhaps this Bill will highlight the situation and will encourage more people to avail of the extension in this regard. One would hope that there will come about an abolition of ground rents in which event there will not be a need in the future for legislation of the kind we are dealing with today. People who buy out their ground rents are in a much better situation in terms of their property than they would be if they did not take this course of action. Of course, ground rents cannot be abolished without making good any losses that would accrue to landlords. I expect that it is partly through ignorance and partly because people tend to take the view that 99 or 150 years is such a long time away that they do not bother to buy out their ground rents. There must have been many people in the twenties and thirties who thought that way too and whose children or grandchildren are now faced with the reality of the situation.

It is obvious that the area the Minister is trying to deal with is only one of many that is causing problems in our whole landlord and tenant legislation. Up to now we tended to think of landlords as being a hangover from the days of the British here. In other words, we thought of landlords as being from places other than our own country but for the past number of years many landlords have been Irish.

While the Chair is prepared to allow passing reference to the ground rents issue, it has been pointed out to Deputy Bruton that it is outside the scope of this Bill.

It is very difficult when speaking on this Bill not to refer to the area of ground rent and of landlords.

I am trying to confine the discussion to the Minister's statement.

I will do so also. Obviously there is an anomaly in cases where the lease has only 15 years to run. If a landlord holds enough power over a person who is seeking, by agreement, to have the terms changed, obviously that person could be forced into meeting the terms of the landlord. This could affect elderly people in particular who may not wish to move from the premises in question. I am glad that the Bill provides that agreement has to be reached, whether in respect of a reversionary lease or in regard to fixing the price for the buying out of a tenancy. I hope the necessary guarantees are built into the legislation so that there will be no need for long drawn-out cases to secure agreement. Arbitration is a necessary element in the Bill so that satisfactory agreement may be reached. Obviously a landlord who is seeking to call in a lease will be anxious to get the best deal possible and I hope every precaution has been taken to ensure that the tenant is safeguarded. I am sure this has been taken into account in drafting the Bill.

With regard to the lease of sporting premises, I welcome what the Bill proposes. This could cause considerable problems in a community on the expiry of a lease and with the premises or land reverting back to the landlord. He could seek planning permission in an area that had been available for years to the community. I urge the Minister to do everything possible to ensure that there are no anomalies in this area and that next time we will be ahead of the Supreme Court.

I welcome the Bill. It is timely and I expect it will get a speedy passage through this House. Everyone is in agreement on the need for the Bill at this point. However, we are just tinkering around with the whole question of ground rents. I regard them as a totally immoral charge and eventually the Dáil will have to grasp the nettle and do something about the matter. There is a question of compensation involved but that compensation should be limited. In the west of Ireland we have the famous Lord Lucan who has ground rents in the town of Castlebar. He absconded some years ago, allegedly for carrying out a particular deed——

I presume the Deputy is only making a passing reference to ground rents.

It affects the whole matter of landlords.

It is not in the Bill.

On Second Stage I think Deputies are quite entitled to refer ——

The Minister made it clear in his speech and the Chair is also satisfied that the grounds rents issue is not involved in this Bill. I appeal to the Deputy, as I have appealed to previous speakers, to confine himself to the terms of the Bill. I appreciate his concern on this point but there will be another day.

Deputy Owen was in favour of the abolition of ground rents and I am sure this view is shared by the majority of speakers. This Bill is merely a measure to alleviate a problem as a result of a High Court action. Ground rents have been a fundamental problem since the foundation of the State. We made headway in our Act which alleviated the situation and which prohibited the creation of new ground rents which were being created by Irish builders and property developers. Fianna Fáil ensured that further ground rents would not be created. However, the abolition of the old system of ground rents should be contemplated by this Government and I appeal to the Minister to bring before this House a measure that will allow for the buying out of ground rents.

I wish to point out to the Deputy that it is my responsibility to keep the debate within the confines of the Bill. He has been given freedom to refer to the matter in question but I ask him now to get back to the Bill before the House.

I realise the Minister may be anxious to conclude this business and I will not delay the House. However, the point I made with regard to ground rents is most important. There is also the situation that we do not own the ground rent of the GPO in Dublin. This is an immoral situation after so many years of freedom. An effort was made to buy out the ground rent but it has not succeeded to date. It is now a matter for An Post to resolve and I hope something will be done about it.

I welcome the measure before the House and the Minister's initiative in bringing it forward considering that to date a case has not been reported. Members will be pleased that the Minister is giving attention to major legislation such as the Criminal Justice Bill and other Bills.

There has been an anomaly in the law in regard to reversionary leases. Many of these leases were fixed in a different age when the problem of inflation did not exist. I am sure the people who originally entered into the leases did not envisage the situation that exists in the 1980s with its high inflation rates and the other changes that have taken place. It is time that this matter was given attention.

We can be grateful to the courts for grappling with the problem. It is very difficult to adjudicate on a matter that was decided many years ago, to translate that into the 1980s and, at the same time, to be fair both to the lessor and the lessee. In former years when many of the leases were being fixed, the Houses of Parliament here, in Britain and on the Continent were influenced strongly by people with property interests. In the days before universal franchise it was in the interest of property owners that this type of legislation be brought forward. We have seen advances in recent decades in that area and the law is becoming more equitable, but land and property law particularly have needed to be looked at for some time.

With his enormous burden of very important legislation affecting the whole country, I am delighted that the Minister found time to study this area and that the legislation has come so early in the term of this Government. It gives us confidence that the Minister will be enabled in the future to undertake a complete review of land law for the purpose of bringing it up to date. He has outlined many of the contradictions and difficulties in coming to terms with this problem. There already have been attempts to bring up the subject of ground rents, which is very tempting. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle has already made a ruling on that and if I do mention the subject it will be only a passing reference, which I hope will be allowed.

In the case of the Landlord and Tenant Act, 1983, the court found that the existing statutory provisions for determining such a rent were not workable. We might ask ourselves why. It was mainly because of the current open market rent of the property in question usually being the determining factor in deciding the result of the review. It is fair and reasonable to reiterate that ground rent tenants have two rights under this law: firstly, to buy out the ground landlord and acquire the fee simple, and, secondly, to renew their leases for 99 year terms. That is the crux of the problem. We know that when the lease is renewable the rent payable remains a ground rent. The question is: can one get a lessor to renew a ground rent for a 99 year term at a fixed rent? I have been amazed at the kind of agreements entered into in former days. The young particularly are amazed at how in property dealings enormously expensive properties by today's standards were entered into many years ago without the contracting parties visualising that some time in the future the terms agreed would be overtaken by increases in cost of living and in the then unknown item, inflation, which has affected property and the fortunes of people in a fantastic way.

A tremendous amount of property here is affected, which will come up for renewal in the remaining part of this century and in the next; so it is time for a review of this legislation. The 99 year term was one of the main stumbling blocks to which the court addressed its mind in trying to evaluate the case of Gilsenan versus Foundary House Investments Limited and Rathmines Properties Limited. They decided that it was unworkable. The new legislation provides a formula which relates the new rent to that which a lessee not already in occupation would give and a willing lessor would take for the land comprising the reversionary lease. Except in the case of agreement between lessor and lessee, it will be impossible to find a lessor willing, given those circumstances and prevailing conditions, to enter for a fixed term into a new arrangement, knowing that inflation is here to stay, even if we can control it, because of the tremendous economic activity and the emancipation of the general populace throughout the western world and the operation of democracy, in future that is not likely to change and we will not see a reversal of the situation to that which prevailed in former times.

One of the other consequences of the case is that a ground rent tenant who wants to buy out the fee simple rather than get a reversionary lease cannot implement his right to purchase unless his lease has more than 15 years to run. The Minister explained the reason for that, saying that the most important consideration bearing on the determination of the purchase price is the rent which would be reserved under the reversionary lease. Therefore a lessee would have to have a minimum of 15 years to run on his lease before he could opt to buy out. I might make a passing reference now to ground rents because——

This is the Deputy's second passing reference.

I referred earlier to a passing reference but did not make it.

The Deputy has made a passing reference already.

Perhaps the Chair would indulge me while I make a quick passing reference to the matter of ground rents.

If the Deputy is very brief.

There was a recent debate here in which The Workers' Party introduced a motion under which they sought to abolish ground rents. I think the Minister present, in his reply, pointed out to them that to abolish ground rents would cost approximately £40 million and that a large proportion of the people who would have to pay that £40 million would be people who were in, say, local authority houses who were not property owners. Therefore, a Socialist party purporting to advocate that ground rents be abolished should remember that the people who will bear that burden are actually not property owners. This Bill and this approach is careful, considered, goes through the courts, is not rushed, takes a balanced view and constitutes a deliberate attempt at being fair to all parties concerned.

I welcome the Bill and look forward to Committee Stage when we can examine the different sections more carefully. It was clearly demonstrated in the Minister's introductory remarks that the law needed revision. There can be no accusatory statements by people that the Government have been slow to tackle this problem. It is fair to point out also that it is an example of something brought forward without public demand or outcry, something we do not often get credit for and which does happen quite a lot. We shall see more of this kind of thing during the remainder of the term of office of this Government. Because the Bill is technical its meat will be tackled on Committee Stage. Therefore I have made the general remarks it is permissible to make, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, because of the rulings you have made on it to date.

Limerick East): This Bill will restore the right to certain property owners to renew the lease of their properties or to purchase the fee simple of those properties. The Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Act, 1967, first gave ground rent tenants the right to abolish their ground rent by purchase. Under the scheme provided by that Act the purchase was a matter for the parties themselves to arrange although any dispute or difficulty might be referred for arbitration to the county registrar whose award might be appealed to the Circuit Court. Therefore, the courts always had a role to play in this. The purchaser was liable for the ground landlord's costs of the transaction although that liability was limited to such costs as are necessary and reasonable. It was recognised that the costs burden on the purchaser could be relatively heavy.

The Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Act, 1978, in effect prevented the creation of new ground rents on dwellinghouses. In the same year the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) (No. 2) Act extended the classes of persons who had the right to buy out as ground rent tenants. It provided a special purchase scheme with a life of five years for that particular scheme and deprived a ground landlord of the right to repossess a dwellinghouse for the non-payment of a ground rent, leaving him simply with the right to sue for any arrears as a civil debt. Also the Landlord and Tenant (Ground) Rent) Act, 1978, included a special scheme under which for a period of five years ground rent tenants of dwelling-houses were given the right to acquire by purchase the fee simple without having to pay more than nominal fee in respect of the legal work involved. In the last session the Ground Rents (Amendment) Act, 1983, increased the fees but maintained the right for a further 12 months.

The net issue of the Bill before us, which is very technical, concerns people who had a house or property with a lease of less than 15 years to run which because of the provisions in previous Acts was related to a price which a willing vendor and a willing purchaser could agree on. People whose leases had less than 15 years to run were unable to exercise their rights to renew a lease, or to purchase the fee simple of a lease, simply because a situation developed in which there were no willing vendors who were prepared to give leases for 99 years even though there might have been willing purchasers. The Gilsenan case in effect said that the court could not decide what would be the appropriate rental on the renewal of a lease simply because the prerequisite, a willing vendor and a willing purchaser operating freely, did not exist. So the right to renew a reversionary lease could not be put into operation. Because of the fact that the right to purchase was related to the new rent which might be fixed on the renewal of a lease a tenant with a lease that had less than 15 years to run could not exercise the right to purchase either. Therefore, rights given previously, or thought to have been given, were found to be inoperable. That left us with a lacuna in the law, leaving people with properties with leases of less than 15 years to run in a situation in which they could neither exercise their rights nor could the courts decide on the basis on which they would renew or on the basis on which they would purchase.

I have also taken this opportunity to introduce a whole lot of other technical changes in this Bill. I thank the various Deputies who contributed to the debate. It is a Bill which can be discussed more appropriately at length on Committee Stage.

The question of ground rents in general has been referred to in passing. Deputy Woods in particular referred to this matter in some detail. I do not propose to dwell on it in any detail. The net issue which arises is that, because the Constitution gives the right to private property; it would not be possible to abolish ground rents without compensation. The compensation, of necessity, in some way would have to relate to the value of what was being confiscated. That places one in a situation in which in recent ground rents situations people who are in possession of property own the property even though they have not the title to the fee simple. If we go for the abolition of ground rents in the wider sense the difficulty that arises is that we would have to compensate, and we can only compensate out of taxation. Therefore we would be transferring enormous sums of money from the taxpayer in general to the benefit of people who own their own houses already and who would be freed from the payment of ground rent.

I should like to wind up now and reserve further comment for Committee Stage.

Question put and agreed to.

Might we have a date for Committee Stage?

(Limerick East): Tuesday next, subject to agreement between the Whips.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 31 January 1984.
Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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