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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 6 Mar 1984

Vol. 348 No. 8

Programme for Action in Education: Statements.

We are debating here today our Programme for Action in Education for the next four years. It is both timely and apt that we should have such a programme and important that this House should consider it. There has been a widespread demand for a clearly-charted sense of direction, a clearing of our minds regarding priorities and where we are going. Education has been characterised for too long by ad hoc decision-making and short-term action.

During the early months of 1983, I was constantly told that a plan was needed, and that this was particularly so given that resources were scarce and that every item of expenditure was being scrutinised. The call was to clarify the issues, define the targets and set the goals. We now have such a plan. It is not a wish-list of hopes, it is all about action.

Unlike the White Paper of December 1980 this programme deals in specific proposals which can and will be acted upon over the next four years. In fact, action has already started. The Estimates for 1984 include specific measures, decided in anticipation of and in the knowledge of what the action programme would contain. Furthermore, there is great activity at present within my Department with regard to implementing the various items to be acted upon. Some can be done quickly, others more slowly. Some require detailed discussion and consultation and this will be carried out. The Special Working Party in my Department who helped me to draw up the programme have now turned their attention to the plan's implementation. This working group will ensure that appropriate action is taken in order to put in train each of the commitments outlined in the programme.

To be successful, all concerned in education must also play their part as without the maximum co-operation it will not be possible to achieve our goals. This is extremely important. We must all share in common purposes so that our young people may gain the greatest benefit possible. To this end we must ensure that sectional interests are not allowed to dictate events. Our collective efforts must avoid this possibility at all costs.

The House will recall that when introducing the Estimates for my Department last June I said that I would be happy to afford the House an opportunity of debating the Programme for Action when available. I gladly fulfil that promise today. I am glad for two reasons. First, the programme is a precise, realistic and educationally-sound document. It has generally been welcomed as such by the various educational interests. Second, it represents the culmination of much work and extensive consultation.

Before I treat in specific terms of the major components of the programme, however, I want to refer to a change in emphasis in financial policy for the educational services.

We all remember the furore which the Opposition created last year over the economies which had to be made in the educational services. In all, a sum of £14.0 million approximately was saved. What did these measures do? I was enabled to provide for the educational services this year without recourse to further economy measures. More importantly, I was able to order, in financial terms, my priorities and to launch the Programme for Action.

The Government were able to make available an additional £7 million approximately to improve the capitation grants for national schools and the grant to secondary schools in lieu of school fees, to initiate a programme for the disadvantaged and to accelerate the school building programme for national schools.

It is a truism to say that when resources are scarce the concept of choice arises. In the context of scarce resources if a service is to be funded it must be done at the expense of another perhaps equally meritorious service. There will never be enough money for education to satisfy all. Therefore, priorities must be ordered. That is precisely what I have done and been enabled to do as a result of last year's economies. I have transferred resources so as to enable me to implement what I regard as my main priority — the care of the disadvantaged. I propose to come back later to this matter of the transfer of resources.

For a moment, however, let me look at the economy measures which were necessary last year. For the record again, I have to say that on becoming Minister for Education I was handed a whole series of cuts determined by the previous Government. My Government examined them as sensitively and as flexibly as possible. Because of our scale of priorities and concern for the socially and economically deprived we modified a number of them. The former Government's proposed cut-back in remedial teaching in national schools was restored. Free transport was restored to pupils whose parents possessed medical cards. The less-well-off in our post-primary schools were given relief from the increase in examination fees.

These measures can in no way be interpreted as a climb down by me or the Government and it was quite wrong of the Opposition to attempt to interpret them in such a way. They represent in tangible form our concern and our care that the disadvantaged children in our society be given every opportunity to advance in the educational system. Such sensitivity stands out in stark contrast to the insensitive approach by the former Administration.

I have already said that the economy measures of last year enabled me to order my priorities and to start the action programme this year. I want to go further than that. At a time when resources for education are scarce I want to ensure that the educational services are cost efficient and cost effective.

I want to look at the expenditure on all our services. If wastage can be identified, I want it eliminated. I want, where possible, to transfer resources to meet the most pressing of our problems. In other words, on behalf of the taxpayer, I want to get the best possible value for money, to extend the best possible education to as many children as possible.

A major area we are examining urgently is that of the rationalisation and co-ordination of facilities at second-level. Not alone must I do so in the interest of better value for money but, more importantly, from the point of view of providing the best possible level of facilities in any given centre.

Educational improvements can be achieved through a more effective and cost efficient use of resources. I accept, of course, that this is a most sensitive area. It demands, in the first instance, full consultation with the major interests at national level.

As stated in the programme, I am arranging for my Department to initiate discussions as speedily as possible. In this regard all traditions must be respected. A number of these traditions go back a long way in our educational history. I will respect those traditions. Having said that, I must make the point, however, that given a typical situation of two or three small post-primary schools in a given centre — all requiring replacement — it does not make either educational or financial sense to perpetuate that system. There should in such circumstances be a coming together of the school authorities and the seeking of a consensus on the form of a unitary school and management structure for the area. Such is clearly in the educational and social interests of the pupils. I intend to pursue this objective as best I can. I hope I will have the co-operation of all the major educational interests in this objective. In addition, I will also press for the co-ordination of facilities in existing centres where rebuilding is not in question.

All of us involved in education — managers, teachers, parents, Minister and Department — are there for one purpose, namely, providing the best possible education and facilities for our young people. I am responsible on behalf of the Government, through the Oireachtas, to the people for educational policy and its execution. I cannot and do not intend to shirk that responsibility.

In rationalising our post-primary facilities difficult decisions may have to be taken by me in individual cases. It is my hope that my guiding principle — the best interests of our pupils — will be respected as the objective basis on which any decision will be made. In this I am confident that I will have much co-operation and understanding from all in whatever lies ahead in this regard.

At this stage, I want to refer to the principles underlying the Programme for Action. I see the educational system enabling all citizens to have access to an education relevant to their needs, abilities and aptitudes. The system requires updating on a continuing basis to take account of change, the development in technology and changing employment patterns.

The programme seeks to make continuing education available for all and to equalise opportunities between the various socio-economic groups and between the sexes. It postulates positive discrimination in favour of the educationally disadvantaged. It sees the development and flowering of our linguistic and cultural heritage. Finally, it seeks to achieve a full partnership between all interests involved by way of consultation and maximum delegation of responsibility and authority.

From those principles flow the programmes' proposals. In addition, they order my own and the Government's priorities. Our actions hitherto point the way towards our main priority — the care of the disadvantaged. As the programme states, education cannot, by itself, redress the social imbalances in our society but it certainly has a major role to play.

We must do all in our power to remove barriers to equality of opportunity facing the educationally, socially and economically deprived. In this regard the period of compulsory education merits special attention. It is the base of the educational pyramid. It is at this initial stage of the education process that positive discriminatory action must begin. My Government have this year taken the initial step by allocating £500,000 to this area. It is our intention to build on that each year over the next four years, as resources permit.

Initially the attention will be focussed on the major urban centres — Dublin, Cork and Limerick. It is recognised, however, that other areas, including rural centres, must receive attention in due course.

Access at every rung of the education ladder must be open to all. Special care must be taken of the students who drop out before the end of compulsory schooling. The next category is those who drop out at the end of the compulsory cycle. Then there is the student of average or less than average ability who completes the Intermediate Certificate Course and who requires alternative courses at the Leaving Certificate cycle.

These then are the young persons most in need of assistance. They will be our special concern over the next four years. That is not to say, of course, that the third-level student is to be neglected; far from it. The Government's objective is to provide third-level education for all those capable of benefiting from it. What we want to ensure is that every child can be given the opportunity of reaching the highest rung of the education ladder. That is the essential task.

I am firmly convinced that good relations, leading to a realistic partnership, are essential among the various educational interests. I attach great importance to this factor. The more we work together and co-operate in harmony, the more effective our educational system will be. For my part, I am committed to a greater delegation of authority and responsibility. I am also committed to achieving a partnership with all interests involved in the educational process.

Achieving this ideal requires a great degree of trust, an avoidance of needless confrontation and a desire to co-operate. The less public confrontation there is, the better for the educational system. It is my earnest hope that a harmonious relationship between all interests will be achieved.

I do not intend to go through the programme and highlight all its proposals. I do, however, wish to refer to some of the specific provisions.

The establishment of the Curriculum and Examinations Board represents one of the most important initiatives ever taken in Irish education. The 1980 White Paper envisaged a curriculum council.

The board now set up and due to be established statutorily in two years time is a major advance on that proposal because it brings together the two very important aspects of post-primary education — curriculum and examinations. Too often in the past these matters have been considered in isolation from one another. This is not the way things should be, as there is a very real danger that the influence of examinations can become much too dominant and limiting on teaching.

I am determined to give maximum support to the board and to allow it the greatest possible freedom in its operation. Its members have been carefully chosen to represent a wide range of educational interests. Already the board has set about establishing committees to assist in its work. These committees are a vehicle through which teachers and other professional interests can be fully involved in the board's work.

The establishment of the board does not mean of course that my Department will no longer have a role to play in educational policy formulation. Far from it, the Department, particularly the inspectorates, will be in an even stronger position to bring forward new thinking and to establish closer working links with schools.

The board, in association with my Department, will work as a close partnership in which no voice will dominate — in the true spirit of democracy.

One important point is addressed in the Action Programme. This refers to the introduction of a flexibility in the rules under which schools operate so that they can be free to adapt curricula more closely to local needs. I believe that this new flexible approach will be greatly welcomed by school authorities.

The terms of reference of the curriculum and examination board assign to it major tasks in relation to reforming the examination system. In particular, the board has been asked to bring forward a new unified junior cycle assessment system to replace the intermediate and group certificate examinations. The aim is to enable all pupils to have a certification of their achievements available to them at the end of the period of compulsory schooling. In the past, too many young people left school without any formal qualification. This has been a serious weakness in the system which must be redressed.

It is extremely important that the examination system is appropriate to pupils across the whole ability range. It is also vital to ensure that all pupils achieve an adequate standard in basic functional literacy and numeracy.

At senior cycle level the Curriculum and Examinations Board has two major jobs to do immediately. The first relates to a reform of the leaving certificate examination to make it a better measure of general education and in this regard to consider the feasibility and desirability of introducing a separate assessment system for selection for entry to third level degree courses.

The second concerns the development of alternative senior cycle courses, more closely related to the world of work, including the extension of pre-employment courses to selected secondary schools. In this respect the proposals to achieve a greater co-ordination between education and training programmes are of particular relevance.

Our young people must be enabled to achieve their full potential. The individual's qualities — spiritual, moral, intellectual, aesthetic and physical — must be developed. On leaving school, the young person should have a trained mind, an openness to change and acceptable social skills. What takes place within the four walls of the classroom determines in large part to what extent these objectives are achieved. This, in turn, hinges on the quality and professionalism of the teacher.

We are fortunate in this country that we have a highly trained and dedicated cadre of teachers. I want to assist that professionalism by giving special attention to their pre-service and in-service training. I am aware that for a number of years in-service training of teachers has been neglected. Conscious as I am of the fundamental importance of the teacher within the classroom, I intend to develop significantly the in-service training of teachers. A start has been made this year, a sum of £287,000 has been made available for in-service courses this year compared with £141,000 last year — an increase of over 100 per cent.

At this point I want to make a special reference to sexism and sex stereotyping. Discussions on sexism and sex stereotyping sometimes provoke a hostile reaction among people whose understanding of these terms is limited. Let me be quite clear that in speaking of these matters in connection with education what I am referring to is at the core and centre of educational policy, that of redressing as far as possible any inequalities of opportunity that occur within the system, and secondly, that of preparing our young people, all of our young people, for the demands which adult life is going to make on them.

Nobody in education would consciously set out to discriminate against girls, to limit their horizons, to afford them lesser chances of full participation in adult life as professionals and as citizens. Nevertheless this happens to a substantial extent by virtue of the survival of traditional attitudes depicting in school texts a more limited role for women in society by virtue of traditional structures and provisions which militate against the opening up of a full range of subjects and of career prospects to girls.

It is a matter of deep concern at any time because apart from being inherently wrong, no country can afford to neglect the development of half of its talent. It becomes a matter of even greater concern when many of the jobs which were traditionally filled by women are rapidly disappearing with the advance of technology.

The Programme for Action sets out a strategy which will help to correct these defects in our educational system. At the attitudinal level much of this strategy consists of convincing parents, educators, publishers and pupils themselves, both boys and girls, that they are not well served by the maintenance of these traditional attitudes.

It is proposed to deal with the topic of sexism as a component of in-service courses for teachers. Discussions are planned with publishers of school texts and the Curriculum and Examinations Board has a specific remit to ensure that sexism/sex stereotyping is not reflected in the curriculum set down for the schools.

Regional seminars will be held during the present year aimed at making school managers and teachers more aware of all aspects of differentiation based on sex within the school situation and in particular in relation to curricular provision and subject choice. Discussions will be undertaken with school management authorities with a view to ensuring that women will be adequately represented on selection boards for posts within the educational service.

Co-operation between boys' and girls' schools has in many areas contributed to an enlargement of curricular provision and subject choice. School authorities will be encouraged to extend such co-operation also as a means of securing a better preparation for both boys and girls for the challenges of adult life.

I am confident that much good-will exists within the education sector and that the harnessing of this good-will will produce positive action in the direction of eliminating sexism and sex stereotyping in our educational system.

I believe that educating boys and girls together is more in keeping with the concept of equality between the sexes and provides a better basis for developing co-operative but equal roles for men and women in adult life. There is no question, however, of forcing co-education on people. The views of parents must be respected and the practical difficulties, particularly in the case of large urban schools, have to be reckoned with. But proposals for new schools on a co-educational basis will be encouraged and the reorganisation of school provision on that basis will be facilitated.

In this regard it may not be generally appreciated how much co-education there is already in our system. In national schools more than half the pupils are in co-educational schools. In all 75 per cent of national schools are co-educational. At the second level roughly half of the schools are co-educational and account for about half of the pupils.

The role of parents as the primary educators of their children is enshrined in our Constitution. None of us needs to be reminded of the efforts and the sacrifices which Irish parents have made down the years for the education of their children, but because they were not organised as such, parents have not been in a position to make their full contribution to discussion and decision-making in education. I believe that parents have a central role to play and a special wisdom to contribute in all matters relating to the education of their children. In drawing up the Programme for Action different parent groups were consulted and the proposals they put forward were taken into account.

I have stressed in the programme the need for parents to organise themselves into a representative parents' council. I have promised that I shall facilitate the setting up of such a council in any way that I can, and that I shall consult the council when established on matters relating to education.

In the interim, as an earnest of my intention, I have nominated a parent representative to the Curriculum and Examinations Board. Discussions are also taking place with a view to having parents represented on the boards of management of comprehensive schools, as is already the case in community schools.

Primary education is the most fundamental of all our educational provision. It is in our 3,400 national schools throughout the country that the majority of our children first learn to socialise with their peers, first become aware of the wider world beyond the home, acquire the skills basic to living and to further learning.

It is during this period of primary schooling that their characters and attitudes are developed and formed, that they inherit the value systems of our civilisation. It is during this period, too, as recent studies have shown, that their future life's chances are, to a very large degree, determined.

The Programme for Action attaches a major priority to the funding of national schools in the allocation of resources available for education. It does so because the Government recognise the importance of a proper environment, conducive to learning, for the children of this country.

While chalk, talk and cornflakes boxes still have their uses, it is abundantly clear that the resources required for proper teaching and learning are becoming sophisticated and expensive. It is essential that our national schools be equipped and maintained to the best possible extent which our resources will allow.

In this connection I would wish to pay tribute to the managerial authorities and local communities who share with the State the burden of financing the operational costs of our national school system. The inflationary increase in such costs in recent years have left many school boards of management in positions of difficulty in covering the basics of heating, cleaning and lighting. Maintenance and the acquisition of requisities, learning aids and equipment have had, in many cases, to be postponed, or have had to depend on the further voluntary efforts of the community.

In such a situation, the schools in the poorer and disadvantaged areas are the ones which suffer most. They are the least able to meet, let alone supplement, the basic local contribution.

It is appropriate, then, that the first proposal of the action programme to be implemented in the provisions for 1984, was the granting of a substantial increase of £4 in the capitation grant to national schools, the largest single increase since such grants were established in 1975-76. There is a special provision, too, of some £500,000 in the present year, to give extra aid to schools which cater for a high proportion of disadvantaged children or for children with special educational needs.

The programme also proposes that an examination be carried out as to whether the present system of funding based totally on enrolments can deal adequately with the variety of changing circumstances found in national schools. This examination will be undertaken without delay.

An important policy initiative of all Governments over the past decade has been the progressive improvement of pupil/teacher ratio in national schools, as a result of which pupil/teacher ratio and average class size were substantially reduced. The estimated overall pupil/teacher ratio for January 1983 was 27.33:1 and the average class size for ordinary classes was 30.57. The pupil/teacher ratio in Ireland is considered high by comparison to that obtaining in our neighbouring island and in most countries of the European Community. What is frequently overlooked in these comparisons is that improvements were achieved in many of these countries by simply maintaining teacher numbers at a time of falling enrolments. Improvements here in our country, by contrast, have had to be achieved at a time of growing pupil numbers and at very considerable extra cost to the taxpayer as numbers of teachers were increased.

The Vote for Primary Education reflects very strongly the labour-intensive nature of our primary education service. In the Estimates for the Public Services for 1984, for example, from a total of approximately £349 million, in the Vote for Primary Education, more than £268 million is accounted for by teachers' salaries. When capital is excluded, a staggering 94.9 per cent of the Vote is accounted for by pay and superannuation provision.

A reduction of one point in the pupil/teacher ratio, from 27.33:1 to 26.33:1 would entail an estimated 775 teaching posts and add some £7 million annually to the salaries bill. It is against this background that the Programme for Action makes its proposals in respect of improvements in the teaching service.

When resources are scarce it makes educational, as well as economic sense to assign them to areas of greatest need. While not losing sight of the objective of improvement in the overall pupil/teacher ratio as soon as financial circumstances permit, the programme proposes to allocate such extra teaching resources as become available to the alleviation of educational disadvantage and to the remedying of difficulties which certain pupils experience in acquiring the basic literacy and numeracy skills. A concerted effort in this direction will, with the co-operation of teachers, school authorities and my Department, secure a more certain educational future for the children in question and contribute significantly to their life chances.

It would be an extremely difficult task to put an exact capital value on our total stock of national schools throughout the country. It is possible to estimate that the replacement value of the stock at current prices would be of the order of £1,000 million. Since 1976, more than £155 million has been spent on grant-aiding the building and improvement of national schools.

Manifestly then, the maintenance and improvement of the existing school stock, as well as the planning for replacement and for the provision of new schools has significant economic and financial implications.

The Programme for Action addresses these implications. It proposes to examine the existing financial arrangements for the maintenance of national schools so as to ensure that internal and external painting, which helps to extend the useful life of the buildings, as well as keeping them in a condition appropriate to an educational environment, is carried out on a regular basis.

Refinement in the planning of school provision, in the light of recent information on the peaking of demand for national school places, is envisaged, as well as exercises in the joint planning of primary and post-primary school facilities so as to extend the optimum usage of school buildings.

These developments, as well as improvements of a practical nature in the administration of the national schools building programme will be facilitated by the Government's decision to transfer responsibility for the technical aspects of this programme from the Office of Public Works to the Department of Education. Discussions are taking place at official level with a view to the implementation of this decision at the earliest possible date.

The Government are concerned that our national school buildings should cater adequately for the curricular and environmental requirements of our school-going population. An expression of this concern was the voting in the context of the budget of an extra £2.0 million for the improvement and extension of national schools, over and above that provided for primary school building in the Estimates for the Public Services, 1984.

A policy of amalgamation of smaller national schools was pursued vigorously from the mid-sixties to the mid-seventies. While this policy brought about a significant reduction in the number of smaller schools, a substantial proportion, more than 30 per cent, of our national schools were still, in 1981-82, of the one teacher, or two teacher category.

The policy of amalgamation is essentially educationally derived, in that it recognises the practical difficulties of teaching together children of widely varying span of age and ability. These difficulties are enhanced by the continually increased demands being made on the school curriculum by the expansion of knowledge and the complexity of everday living.

It is intended during the period of the programme that this policy of amalgamation be maintained and that wherever practicable, following consultation with parents, teachers and school authorities, smaller schools be consolidated into more viable educational units.

An aspect of amalgamation policy hitherto was that it applied mainly to rural areas. The arguments for amalgamating urban schools, where the enrolment has fallen well below the capacity of the provision, are compelling, both on grounds of financial viablility and range of educational services. The possibilities of amalgamating such schools will also be pursued during the period of the programme.

If I might mention the curriculum at primary level, the curriculum of the primary schools was reviewed and a new curriculum introduced in 1971. There are a number of important qualities with respect to this curriculum which it is important to emphasise. One is that it is child-centred, the second is that it is an integrated curriculum and the third that it is highly flexible, affording the professionally trained treacher the opportunity to interpret it in a way which best suits the circumstances of the children she is teaching.

Any broadly based surveys carried out on the primary curriculum have indicated that it has a high level of acceptability among teachers, pupils and parents and that it has added significantly to the scope and range of primary education.

The various aspects of the curriculum have been the subject of a number of evaluative studies by the curriculum unit of the Department of Education and the publication of these studies during the period of the programme will provide a useful pointer to any changes or adaptations that may be required.

The Curriculum and Examinations Board will take on responsibility for recommending such changes and will pay particular attention to the problems arising on the transfer of pupils from the child-centred primary to the subject-centred post-primary system. Pilot projects of a curricular nature which it is planned to undertake during the period of the programme concern the teaching of science and of computing in selected schools. The initial definition of these projects is being undertaken by the inspectors of my Department, following which consultation will take place with the appropriate authorities.

It will be seen that the proposals regarding primary education in the Programme for Action are very practical and address themselves to three main themes. Firstly, the schools must be enabled to operate at the best possible level. There is little point in spending large sums of money on teachers' salaries if they then have to go to work in schools where environmental and resource factors militate against good teaching and good learning. Secondly, increased resources, to the extent that they are available, are directed towards pupils who are socially disadvantaged or otherwise experiencing learning difficulties. It is our firm conviction that such a policy is justifiable at any time but is especially justifiable at a time when resources are scarce. Thirdly, the proposals aim for increased efficiency in the planning, provision and use of schools, in their maintenance and preservation and in the implementation of curricular and teaching strategies which will be supported by in-service training. It is my hope, indeed my conviction, that the end of the four year period will see positive and tangible progress in primary education.

In the chapter dealing with second level education the major issues of our time are examined. The question of the structuring of the post-primary cycles will be addressed at a later date in the promised discussion paper linking the issues of the ages of entry to, transfer within and leaving from the educational system. Many of the topics discussed have curricular implications and will fall to be considered by the Curriculum and Examinations Board. However, at the same time the general debate about them must also be given a wider audience.

The programme sets out to ensure the rational and complementary development of the secondary, vocational and community/comprehensive sectors. Each has its own strengths and our aim will be to draw on the best of all of them. It is not in the interest of the development of our young people that these sectors should be in competition with one another, each out to protect or advance its own position. Rather we must achieve harmony, complementarity and the maximum degree of co-operation between them.

In the sixties a veritable revolution occurred in Irish education in that almost overnight access to full second-level education became available to all Irish children. Widespread access to this level is now taken for granted and it is agreed by most people that the time is now ripe for us to consolidate our achievements. This consolidation is to take the form of examining more closely the system of second-level schooling to ensure its continuing significance and relevance to the individual pupil and to society as a whole. This scrutiny of our second-level system of education is, in my opinion, a task of even greater fundamental significance than the decisions of the sixties, in the sense that it is going to require self-examination of a high philosophical nature which will demand from educators and adults in our society a commitment calling for great discipline, learning and humility.

The general area of education for life is already the subject of several quite unique educational pilot schemes in this country and of many special programmes formulated by individual schools in response to these needs. Convent and Protestant schools in particular have done some remarkable work in this area.

Adolescents are becoming more and more the object of commercial interests and an extensive teenage industry has developed based on their buying power. This industry make use of widespread advertising and aims at creating new needs, desires and preferences. This, unfortunately, strengthens adolescents' identity as a separate group and widens the gulf between them and the parent generation.

Furthermore the role of parents as primary educators and counsellors has been eroded with the advent of modern technology and developments in the mass media. Non-occupational training, which parents once gave to their children, has been taken out of their hands, not by the teacher but by the very social changes which has separated adolescents into a society of their own. Adolescents may now be an independent youth culture. Yet modern research continues to indicate general goodwill of adolescents towards family and school.

Do our schools, or do schools anywhere, respond positively on behalf of pupils' needs? I believe there is a positive growing awareness, born of genuine concern and humility, in our society that we have not been doing enough to support adolescents and that it is time that we responded on several fronts to help our teenagers to gain fulfilment on as many planes as possible.

The whole question of sex education needs to be addressed urgently. This is of course an area of particular delicacy and sensitivity. It is important to involve all the relevant parties, parents, teachers, school management, social workers, Health Education Bureau, together to formulate a programme of sex education which would be open to all schools to use. The Action Programme stresses the importance of collaboration between agencies to achieve the formal introduction of health education in all schools. Sex education is an important aspect of this.

I am conscious of course that many schools have already devised very successful programmes of sex education. In this they have had regard to the views of parents. In many cases sex education is dealt with in the context of pastoral care programmes, or religious education classes, alongside the straightforward informational aspects which arise in classes such as in science and home economics. I am anxious to encourage all schools to face up to these issues. I am told that boys schools in particular have still a long way to go in this respect.

For my part I want to ensure that assistance will be forthcoming from my Department in helping schools to plan sex education programmes. Within the present range of subjects at secondary level there is the means to create eventually a positive approach to dispelling ignorance of elementary areas of sexuality and of offering students constructive guidelines for fulfilling their social and personal potential. But the usual problem exists: a subject-based approach where there is no effective cross-reference between the subjects which can incorporate this knowledge. This is one of the major tasks confronting the Curriculum and Examinations Board: making the subject-based curriculum more flexible in a school staff's mind so that it can cope with urgent or ongoing problems which do not lend themselves to treatment in single subject areas.

Today as never before our young people are exposed to the widespread availability of drugs. Drugs are an additional hazard to be encountered by boys and girls in the process of growing up. Drugs education must be seen in the context of preparation for life and not separated out for special attention.

A series of information days for teachers from schools in "at risk" areas have been planned and will commence shortly. These seminars will provide information for teachers and will provide a means of consultation on further action. The information days will be followed up by longer courses of about one week's duration for selected teachers so that progress will be made towards the goal of having at least one teacher per school in "at risk" areas in a position to advise on issues relating to drugs. These courses will commence in the summer.

My Department are co-operating with the health education bureau in updating the training of a group of 25 teachers who took a course some years ago so that they might be available to parent groups and to other teachers to give talks on drugs.

Collaboration has begun with the Health Education Bureau in the production of material which may be used for drugs education. A set of video film has been developed and these are being used on a pilot basis in about 40 schools. These will be available for wider dissemination, with accompanying teaching notes, before the end of this school year. In addition there is co-operation in the production of a general drugs education package for schools. It is planned to continue to develop a range of materials.

A diploma course in addiction studies has been established in Trinity College. This course is being funded by the Department of Health for an initial three-year trial period. I hope that some interested teachers will be enabled to attend this course.

I realise that it will take time for educational action to affect what is happening on our streets and elsewhere. I realise, as well, that education alone is not the only answer. I feel that a good beginning has been made. What is important is that what we are doing is developed and sustained and that we do not allow ourselves to become complacent. I hope that the actions I have mentioned will attract broad support and that these will make an important and continuing contribution to the prevention of drug abuse.

Another important thrust of the action programme is the emphasis on the development of science and technology in educational programmes.

In recent years scientific and technological developments in microelectronics, telecommunications and data processing techniques have had profound effects not only on industrial and commercial activities but also on society in general.

As a consequence, there have been many changes both of a qualitative and quantitative nature which affect virtually all members of society. Indications are that the rate of advance in scientific knowledge and technological know-how will continue at an equally rapid pace. It is predicted that by the year 2000, not so far away, the amount of knowledge available will be three to four times more than the amount available today.

As we have a small open economy with a high percentage of our population in school, it is important that the educational system is capable of producing persons with appropriate expertise and skills.

In order to optimise the social impact of technological change, educational programmes must be designed so as to ensure that pupils acquire the requisite knowledge and flexibility of approach to be able to adapt to technological changes and to assimilate new knowledge throughout their adult lives.

We must promote and foster in young people creative talents and encourage the acquisition of entrepreneurial skills. In this respect the advances made in the information technologies and in particular in microcomputing systems are of great significance.

It is now generally accepted that in so far as it is possible, all pupils in post-primary schools should have some knowledge about the applications, limitations and implications for society of the new information technologies and in particular of computing systems.

In order to enable all schools to provide computer awareness programmes, micro-computers, as stated in the Programme for Action, will be supplied to all post-primary schools which have not already benefited by the scheme and which have suitably trained teachers to use them.

Appropriate in-service courses in computer studies will be provided in 1984 and subsequent years to ensure that teachers will be given opportunities to acquire competencies in the educational uses and applications of microcomputers. Microcomputers will also be provided in the principal teacher centres.

In order to make the most effective use of microcomputers in schools my Department has sought the views of management and teaching interests on various strategies relating to the development of computer education. It is hoped that arising from this it will be possible to introduce some new computer based innovations in the near future.

It is encouraging for me as Minister for Education to witness the increase in co-operation between schools and industrial interests. Particularly at a time of economic constraints and financial restrictions, I am glad to know that strong links between industry and schools are being forged and that a number of industries have initiated schemes whereby schools in their locality can avail of their services and in certain instances acquire equipment and materials for school use at little or no cost.

In the area of modern languages the need has long been felt for a form of assessment that takes full account of aural/oral skills. This need has been articulated over a period of years by the language associations, the universities, the teacher unions and by commercial and industrial interests. It is a lack in our assessment procedures of which I have been personally conscious. It is now a source of satisfaction to me that preleaving-cert classes in French, German, Spanish and Italian are at this moment preparing for a new format of examination which includes a listening component. This means that in June 1985 candidates will, for the first time in this country, be examined on their ability to understand the authentic spoken language. I am pleased to state too that the written papers for that year and the years following will test candidates' reading fluency and their ability to respond in a personal rather than an academic way to written questions.

It is clear that reform of this order cannot be carried out without Government investment. Teachers must be given opportunities of attending information sessions, in-service courses in teaching methods, language-proficiency courses at home and in the foreign country whose language they teach.

As well as raising the allocation for in-service courses, my Department has already embarked on a scheme for the provision of cassette-recorders to schools. This scheme is to continue over the next few years. The reforms in modern language teaching that are already under way have by and large been welcomed by practising teachers. The importance of oral competence in languages goes far beyond the world of education alone. It is very important for our economy generally that there is a high level of language competence among those who will market our products abroad. There is also the question of an increasingly mobile work force throughout Europe generally and this gives an added impetus to the need to develop language skills. On both these accounts I am most anxious to see schools encourage the learning of what are sometimes called `minority' languages, particularly German, Spanish and Italian. A question can be raised as to why so many schools concentrate exclusively or principally on French.

The need to co-ordinate educational and training activities has been mentioned in the programme and the Government have appointed Deputy George Birmingham as Minister of State at the Department of Education as well as at the Department of Labour.

He is in the process of consulting all the interests involved and will be reporting to the Minister for Labour and myself and through the Ministers to the Government on the measures which he sees as necessary to bring about greater co-ordination of education and training activities, to eliminate any waste or overlapping and to concentrate available resources in a way which will deliver the best possible service to our young people.

The EEC pilot projects on transition from school to work, the first series of which have been completed and the second series of which have recently been launched, have highlighted the needs in this area and the kind of programmes required to meet those needs.

The revamped guidelines for projects eligible for assistance under the European Social Fund have put great emphasis on basic vocational training and preparation for work.

The opportunity for providing new and expanded courses afforded by the new emphasis in the Social Fund regulations is being actively pursued by my Department and the lines on which developments could proceed have been indicated in the programme.

Such developments would accord closely with the priority tasks which have been assigned to the Curriculum and Examinations Board and would herald a greater emphasis within the education system on provision for those for whose needs the present academically weighted programmes do not provide the answer.

The chapter on third-level education in the Programme for Action is written in the context of the growing number of young people who will be seeking entry into third-level institutions. Unlike most other European countries, we have a growing population. While the rate of increase in our school-going population is slowing down at primary and secondary level we are only now experiencing the brunt of the population growth at third level. In terms of actual numbers, the third-level student population in 1982-83 was of the order of 47,000. It is anticipated that by the end of the decade this number will have increased by about 20,000.

The Government are committed to providing third-level education for as many young people as possible and it is, therefore, very important that every effort should be made to make the system more cost effective and to improve productivity. The Programme for Action lays great stress on considerations of this kind and indicates a number of areas which would repay attention. All of the proposals in the programme will be taken up in discussions with the authorities of the various institutions involved and particularly with the Higher Education Authority, the IVEA and the National Council for Educational Awards.

The emphasis on cost effectiveness and improved productivity is one side of the coin, the other side of which is the provision of additional places and the updating of equipment and facilities generally, all of which must be financed out of the Public Capital Programme. The position in this regard in the years immediately ahead will be considered by the Government as part of the medium-term capital programme which is at present being drawn up.

It is recognised that no matter what may be achieved in terms of cost-efficiency and greater utilisation of resources, increased numbers of students will give rise to substantial increases in the provision of current funding also. This leads inevitably to consideration of the level of fees to be charged to students. In the university sector, students fees have been increased regularly over the last few years. For the current academic year, fees were increased substantially in the technological sector but from a very low base in comparison to the fees charged to university students. Notwithstanding these increases, the total current cost of university education met from fees is still only about 17 per cent whereas in the early seventies fees accounted for 20 per cent of the total costs.

In the non-university sector, fees represent a lower percentage of the total costs. It has been the policy of Coalition Governments to provide aid for students who could not otherwise afford to avail of third-level education. As evidence of this policy it must be pointed out that the Coalition Government announced major improvements in the higher education grants scheme for the year 1981-82. The improvements brought about in student aid schemes at that time may be gauged from the fact that in 1980-81 the total expenditure on the higher education grants scheme was £4 million and there were 5,021 grant holders. By 1982-83 expenditure had more than doubled and the number of grant holders had increased by almost 50 per cent to 7,410. In the case of the VEC scholarship scheme there were 1,762 scholarship holders in 1980-81 and the cost was £953,000. By 1982-83 the number of scholarship holders had increased by more than 150 per cent to 4,440 and the cost more than quadrupled to £4.04 million.

The Government are naturally concerned to ensure that the level of fees is not pitched at a level which would adversely affect the numbers of students availing of third-level education. There is a need, therefore, to examine this question carefully to see if alternative funding arrangements are possible. It is with this in view that the Programme for Action refers to the possibility of a mixed grant-loan system of student aid. The programme points out that such a scheme is under consideration at present by the Government and that an announcement on it will be made in due course.

In the foreword to the programme I refer to the scope of the consultations held with the various interest groups and this applied to those involved in third-level education as much as any other sector. I look forward to continuing that consultation with the relevant interests.

The Government's role with regard to third level education is not solely one of making provision for an increased number of places. Since the sixties there has been an unprecedented surge of activity in the development of new institutions — the regional technical colleges, the national institutes for higher education for example — and in developing new roles for existing institutions — the development of new courses in the colleges of education is an obvious example.

As a necessary corollary to this activity, we have had the growth of new regulatory agencies to cater for the orderly expansion of new and old institutions. The Higher Education Authority and the National Council for Educational Awards are the most important of these agencies. The work of providing a legislative framework for the changed situation at third level is not yet complete. In particular, there is a need to consider whether legislation is required to break up the National University of Ireland and to provide a modern responsive, democratic structure of government for the university institutions formed as a result of this break-up.

The contribution by our universities to economic growth, to political stability and to social development has been inestimable. Distinguished scholars from our universities have rubbed shoulders with the world's outstanding intellectual giants. The inter-action between State, industry, trade unions and universities is a full and mutually rewarding one and I consider that political life is all the richer because it has attracted eminent academics to its ranks.

The challenge facing universities today to work with me and the Government in finding ways to throw open our resources to a bigger number of young people is as great as anything that has faced them in the past. I know they will face that challenge with generosity and true patriotism.

During the period of the Programme for Action extensive consultations are envisaged with the providers of teacher education at both first and second levels. These consultations will be concerned both with the quantitative and the qualitative side of teacher education. On the quantitative side there has for many years been a need to refine methods of fore-casting teacher requirement. It would be difficult to defend to taxpayers the maintenance of a capacity to train teachers in excess of our needs, or to young people the maintenance of a system which would offer them training for a profession which many of them would never be able to exercise. On the qualitative side it is some years now since the Bachelor of Education degree courses for primary teachers have been established and it stands to reason that the review envisaged at the time of their establishment should take place at an early date.

In-service training as a concept is widely accepted throughout industry, business and the professions. In the field of education teachers have to cope with the advances in knowledge in their subjects, with the changes in pedagogic methods signalled by research and evaluation, with the inclusion of new disciplines in schools and the redundancy of old ones, with the varying curricular demands set down by curriculum planners and developers. Much of this adaptation to change is carried out by teachers on a personal basis because teachers are, in the last analysis, students in their own right. Support structures for in-service training are however necessary and in the main these consist of courses organised by the Department, by various professional organisations or by the teachers themselves in association with the teacher centres.

Adult education is an area where it is important for us to clarify priorities. To do this we must await publication of the Adult Education Commission's Report. However, the Action Programme promises that literacy provision will receive special attention. As an earnest of our intentions here, I am pleased to tell the House, that for the first time ever a grant of £10,000 will be made this year to the National Adult Literacy Agency to support them in their extremely important work, as I am much impressed by all that they are doing.

It is appropriate that our debate on the Programme for Action in Education should conclude with a discussion of the proposals regarding the Irish language and culture. The position in the debate defines it as the last but by no means the least of our concerns.

I would say that had every institution in our society supported the Irish language as well as our schools have done in the past, then there is little doubt but that Irish would be a vernacular language in daily use in this country to a much greater extent than it is at present.

It is appropriate too that I should pay tribute to teachers generally, but particularly to the teachers in national schools who in the early years of the State gave sterling service to a language revival policy which was then seen as essential to the development and maintenance of our self-image as a distinctive people and nation. Their efforts continued throughout the years with diminishing support from the environment outside of the school and under increasing assault from the ready access to media messages and entertainment in the world language, English. Many would have given up in despair, but our teachers persisted and they have weathered criticisms about the standard and position of Irish in the schools when many of these criticisms might have been more appropriately directed at the lack of a supportive and applicative environment outside the school, which is essential for the progress of a living language.

The Irish language remains as essential to our recognition as a distinctive people, as a source of a culture from which we can contribute much of unique and inestimable value to the civilisation of Europe and the world. What Plean Ghníomhaíochta na Gaeilge in conjunction with the Action Programme for Education offers is the opportunity for a new beginning. For the first time Irish is seen, not as a replacement of the world language, English, but as a vernacular national language that can and should co-exist with English in a bilingual society.

Specific actions and targets are set down for the Gaeltacht, for the State and for the community generally as well as for education. These actions and targets are and should be supportive of one another, so that the education sector in undertaking its component of the task will not be acting alone. From this broad approach should emerge a new environment in relation to Irish, an environment which will be supportive of our young people in the learning of the language, an environment which will afford them the opportunity to use what they learn outside the confines of the school and stimulate them to do so, but above all an environment which has defined and accepted our national language and culture as something which we must retain and develop in all aspects of our life as Irish people.

In my foreword to the Programme for Action, I stated that it was the Government's hope that the programme would initiate a constructive debate on the educational system. I look forward to today's debate. I look forward, too, to continuing discussions with the various educational interests. I am not naive enough to think for one moment that the production of this document will be the panacea for all the ills in the educational system. I need hardly tell this House that I am aware now, as never before, of the complexities in education and the challenges which face us.

Of course, there are difficulties. Resources are going to be scarce, but that is the spur to greater effort. There is much that we can do to improve the quality of our education system without resources or with small additional resources. I submit that the Programme for Action sets out clear courses of action which will guide us on the right lines for the next four years.

I commend the programme to the House.

As Fianna Fáil spokesperson for education I welcome the opportunity to debate the recently published Programme for Action in Education for the Years 1984-87. A programme for action in any sphere of activity is a worthy and sensible objective. Goals and objectives if clearly defined and realistically costed are useful sign-posts to persons operating within that sphere of activity. The Minister's programme is full of correct educational concern but there is very little commitment of cash. The booklet and the Minister's speech show a strong awareness of the problems in education but there are no promises of definite action. I would cavil at the title of the booklet which states that it is a programme for action. It is a programme for deferred action, for action in the future at some unspecified date.

The Minister said her proposals were not a wish list of hopes. In preparing my speech I said that many of the outlined proposals read like a shopping list of highly admirable but deferred educational aspirations. Throughout the publication we see references to "training of teachers — pre-service and in-service — will be given special attention within the overall limited resources that will be available for education" and "when it is possible to consider the re-establishment of these schemes...". That refers to the appointment of caretakers and clerical assistants.

There are various references to the proposals for the future. In many instances the document clearly identifies the problems and the needs, but fails to come up with realistic proposals. Any plan for any sphere of activity has cost implications which should be listed realistically. Otherwise such a plan loses much of its authority and authenticity.

We see sentences like "Such a thing will be reviewed", "can be considered later", "when it is possible", "as soon as resources permit". They can be seen throughout the whole programme. They do not inspire much hope or confidence that positive action will be taken despite the title of the book.

I am very glad the Minister recognises that substantial progress has been made in the educational system over the past two decades. In any review of a forward plan we have to look back at past developments and talk about them before dealing with what we hope to do in the future. In paragraph 1.16 of the preamble the Minister set out the phenomenal growth in education over the past two decades almost. She said:

The number of primary school pupils has increased from 505,000 in 1966 to 574,000 in 1983, while teacher numbers rose from about 15,000 to 20,000. Following the introduction of "free education" numbers in second-level schools increased from 143,000 to 325,000 in the period 1966 to 1983, while the number of teachers rose from 9,000 to 19,000 in the fourteen years to 1983. At third level the number of university students increased over the same period from 13,000 to 24,000.

There has been a forecast of a further bulge in the third level educational system towards the end of this decade.

The quotation continues:

Successive Governments since 1966 have consistently been committed to the development of the educational system... Among the major developments were the provision of nine new Regional Technical Colleges, the establishment of two National Institutes of Higher Education, the setting up of forty-two new Community schools, a massive building programme at all levels of the system and an extended scheme of Higher Education Grants and Scholarships.

During those years I was starting out on my teaching career. I witnessed a great deal of that growth without realising at the time that I was witnessing it, particularly the growth in the late sixties and early seventies. It behoves all of us to reflect on that phenomenon of the massive growth in education and the advances made to cope with it.

In doing so we recall the distinguished names which were associated with that massive educational development such as the late Donogh O'Malley, the late Minister for Education. The Minister did not refer to him by name but she referred to the impetus given by the overnight announcement of "free" second level education and the opening up of the second level educational system to young people at one stroke. It was a marvellous thing to do. It showed imagination and initiative. He looked at the problem and decided there were huge inequalities. Large numbers of pupils were not able to go to second level schools. Later in life they would look back with opprobrium at the society which had not provided the opportunity for them. He looked at the problem and then he tackled it.

As we are at such an important stage of development in education now, it behoves all of us to pay tribute to him. I should also like to pay tribute to the work done by people like President Hillery, Deputy Wilson, Deputy Faulkner, Commissioner Burke, Deputy Boland, the present Minister for the Public Service; Dr. Martin O'Donoghue and Deputy Brady. Perhaps I have left out some people but those are the names which spring to my mind. A tremendous tribute is due to the foresight and skill of these former Ministers for Education.

As the Minister correctly pointed out, everybody is involved in education — parents, teachers, young people and educationalists. Credit is due to all of them. They saw the challenges and they rose to them and produced plans for positive action. Looking back we remember the stories about the late Donogh O'Malley and how he got his way with regard to the announcement of the opening up of second level education. It was an act of bravado and in retrospect it was quite right.

The Minister identified various programmes of action and she went through the various stages of education. Later I will comment on her speech if I have time. This document was the format in which the plan was put to us. That is the format I shall adopt for my contribution. The plan went on to deal with primary education. In regard to that level of education, as one involved in the teaching profession, I fully support the expressed declaration in the action plan with regard to placing special emphasis — I hope this also means special financing — on disadvantaged groups and areas. I am committed, as my party have been down the years, to the idea that special emphasis should be placed on aiding disadvantaged groups. I am sure any person remotely connected with education is committed to that idea also. In conjunction with that, special emphasis will have to go special financing. The £500,000 to be given to primary school disadvantaged areas this year is not realistic to support the hopes expressed in the plan. The commitment is specific but it is irrelevant when one considers the extent of the problem that exists in disadvantaged areas.

I should like to tell the House that the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party are carrying out a review of the primary education system. We are consulting with experts in this area and they have indicated to us that there is a great need for more remedial teachers and a reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio in primary schools, especially in disadvantaged areas. The Minister's allocation to commence this programme in 1984 is a token amount. There is need for a greater financial commitment. A stronger political will is needed if the programme is to achieve what is expressed in the action plan.

I should like now to refer to the input of a former Minister for Education, Deputy Faulkner, to the Rutland Street project. There are many lessons to be learned from that project, in particular that changes in the young child's total environment will greatly increase the effect of positive intervention in the educational system and the input by parents in the educational development of their children. I discussed this project at length with Deputy Faulkner. In this context I should like to express my appreciation to those who have been involved in education in Fianna Fáil for the assistance they have given me since my appointment as spokesperson on Education. Deputy Faulkner is still very interested in the area of dealing with disadvantaged young children. The Rutland Street experiment did not fail but, unfortunately, such experiments did not take place elsewhere. From the conversations I have had with those involved in that scheme I am convinced that it is a model for other disadvantaged areas. I liked the idea that parents went to the school with their young children. The children were not divorced from the culture and the environment from which they had come. At second level I have had experience of dealing with disadvantaged children and I found that children were unable to cope with the lack of motivation in their home environment and what was put on offer to them at school. There was an enormous cultural gap. It is a huge undertaking for such children to go through a formalised setting that is in our educational system in which there are rules to be obeyed. In fact, they must adopt two different roles if they come from a disadvantaged home.

One of the most beneficial aspects of the Rutland Street project was that it was a two-way process of sharing with the parents and children receiving benefits in return. The children benefited because of the presence of one of their parents. It was not necessarily the mother who was involved in going to the school with the child. In today's climate where some families have just one wage earner it may happen that the father would be the person to go to the school with the child. In the Rutland Street project the children were not removed too much from their home scene because they were close to a comforting family figure. Parents benefited because they witnessed a formal type of education for their children, although it was not in a very structured sense, as one would expect for children between three and six years of age. Parents in the Rutland Street project were exposed to a type of educational system and they could see knowledge being imparted. Projects such as that should be carried out in other areas. I hope the projects outlined in the Minister's programme will take cognisance of the Dublin experiment. I am sure that an examination of that project would indicate that it was not all of a valuable nature but a lot of it was.

I intend to ask the Minister at Question Time in the coming weeks to give details of the schools listed for assistance under her scheme. I am glad the Minister did not rule out rural schools for that type of assistance. We tend to think that disadvantaged children live in built-up urban areas where there is bad housing, overcrowding, an element of malnutrition or a lack of facilities such as libraries. Another type of deprivation occurs in rural communities. I intend to ask the Minister how many children will benefit from her scheme, how many are listed as being disadvantaged and how many teachers will be employed to deal with those children. I will be asking the Minister what skills the teachers will have. However, we must have a commitment also to the lowering of the pupil-teacher ratio. I accept that the Minister announced that there is a commitment to lowering that ratio, but her statement was vague.

Many of the problems experienced by disadvantage pupils would diminish if there was a more acceptable level of pupil-teacher ratio. I am aware that at the early stages of second level it is possible to identify difficulties in reading or learning or social problems in pupils but it is not possible to do that if one has to deal with a large class. One tries to do one's best by putting some children in a section of the classroom and giving them special attention, but one must always bear in mind the responsibility to the other children. Parents are entitled to see that their children are not deprived because a teacher has a strong social conscience. A lowering of the pupil-teacher ratio may not be the answer to all problems in regard to disadvantaged children but it would help. It would help teachers identify the problems and then deal with them. In the weeks and months ahead we hope to get this commitment in relation to this area. I want to put on record my total approval of a commitment to cope with the disadvantaged. That would be an essential element of all educational systems. In the weeks and months and, I hope, not too many years that I will be on this side of the House my quest will be for information in reply to queries dealing with the disadvantaged.

I welcome the proposal to remove responsibility for national school building from the Commissioners of Public Works to the Department of Education. This will eliminate many headaches and frustrations and I hope that the Minister will speed it up. Dealing with the Board of Works and then the Department of Finance, back to the Board of Works and then being referred to the Department of Education, at this stage you give up and say that you will try again next week and contact somebody else. It has always struck me as odd that when you would put your query you were told that it was, say, Deputy Bermingham's responsibility but it had to do with education. We hope that will be sorted out and so the number of headaches and, we hope, the delay will be reduced.

If I seem to compartmentalise or put education into slots I do not intend to do so because I believe strongly that education is interlinked and the areas within it are dependent on each other and what went before and what will come after. For this debate today I took my lines from the book which dealt with it in segments although it referred back and forward also and so for the purpose of clarity or elucidation that is how I will do it. The transition from primary to second level should be explored fully, and I am glad to see that this issue is highlighted in this document. Our party have been probing and discussing this a great deal and eventually something will be worked out in regard to it. I used to think that on transition to second level somebody should have specific responsibility for dealing with pupils newly in from the primary school sector. The committee's document outlined the suggestions of perhaps a teacher holding a post of responsibility for dealing with the transition of new pupils into second level.

Now I wonder if it would be better to have in the final years of primary school a little more diversity of subjects, maybe diversity of teachers, perhaps a different way of teaching, so that the easy, happy way would continue but slightly more formalised; yet I would hope that the early stages of second level would be less stylised and formalised. It is an area for growth to which I am sure the Curriculum and Examinations Board will devote themselves in their brief as needing attention. Possibly I am boring the House in talking about myself, but when one has been in education it is very difficult not to give of one's experience just as a doctor talking about health gives of his experiences. I see children coming in after travelling six or seven miles on buses on cold winter mornings and it is very difficult for these new pupils to cope with the system of second level with bells every 40 minutes, a new schoolmistress, schoolmaster or teacher, eight or nine subjects, being hushed along corridors into more subjects, more teachers, more timetables. It is a wonder they cope, but young people have great resilience. I am glad the book mentions that great area of development to which the curriculum board are appropriate. That board would be concerned mainly with the leaving stages of primary school and second level curricula.

The major challenge facing the board would be to appreciate and absorb into our education curricula the new technological subjects but yet to seek to retain our traditional academic base. I have spoken about this previously and I make no excuses for referring to it again because I would not like us to be caught up in the computer and micro age without keeping in touch and in tandem with our traditional academic base which has given us and our young people a sound foundation and knowledge of our history, culture, traditions and language. I hope that in our haste to keep up with the times we do not become unstuck. This is a little caveat which I introduce here.

As our party's spokesperson I welcome officially the setting up of the curriculum board. I have spent too long in education not to know and understand fully the limitations to many of the present rigid examination structures at second level. I have felt and perhaps still feel unease at the lack of representation on this board by many who, I felt, would have an important role to play on it. Perhaps they are already on the board's sub-committees. Of course I have not the opportunity of appointing them but I would like to see on this board some people who have been involved in curriculum development over the years. I would like to record our appreciation of the work done by Deputy John Wilson who in his term of office formally proposed the formation of a curriculum council which, as the Minister said, has expanded to become the Curriculum and Examinations Board. The two matters are interlinked. You cannot propose a change in curricula without a change in the follow-up to those curricula and assessment procedures and then some sort of examination.

Dealing still with second level, there is need for research and development into the area of schooling up to the end of compulsory education, as the Minister has mentioned. Continuous assessment for examination purposes is discussed. Agreeing that continuous assessment is a very important area to be debated, one must be always conscious in assessment of the fear of the lowering of standards of one kind or another. Again I am entering a caveat. Assessment is always very subjective and it must be worked out by the curriculum board in their studies and in their liaison with teachers. I participated in an assessment programme at intermediate certificate level of history when part of the marks could be apportioned by the teacher if a pupil in that class took up a project. We did that for two years in Summerhill where I taught. It was marvellously successful. The pupils took local and environmental studies. They went to the old workhouse and traced back the story of the inmates and what they did, and then sketched out what life would have been like in the workhouse. That developed into the project on the Famine. Another group took on the study of commercial development in the town of Athlone in the 19th century. They traced shops that had been set up there, the kind of business that was done and so on. I enjoyed doing that with the pupils for two years although I was very conscious of my huge responsibility with regard to marking. An inspector would have come to vet the results although I do not remember that happening. The number of marks for that segment was about 20. When I read about the curriculum board and what they said about assessment I was very impressed, remembering the anguish I went through over the 25 girls who took part in that project, wondering whether Mary Ann should get 12 and Emily 13 marks out of the 20. It is a very difficult position for a teacher. I presume there will be courses devised for that. One would have to question whether a blanket proposal of assessment, in its own way, would lead to a lowering of standards.

Paragraph 5.8 of Chapter 5 deals with the role of guidance counsellors and says:

In future the allocation of guidance posts will be made on the basis of school needs and taking account of the range of programmes available in the school.

Perhaps the Minister would tell me what exactly is meant by that, if not today then on another occasion, particularly the phrase that "the allocation of guidance posts will be made on the basis of school needs". I do not like that phrase because, whether it was meant or not, there is an implied threat to existing guidance counsellor posts, limited and all as they are. If the resources were available each school could need a guidance counsellor particularly in the complexity of modern life — to which the Minister referred — the stresses and influences to which students are subjected through the media, the pressures of the consumer society which impinge so much on young people, the pressures from their peer groups. The whole complexity of life today would lead one to believe that there is more and more need for guidance counsellors, perhaps not strictly career guidance counsellors but rather in terms of pastoral care. I would hope the Minister would elucidate that point for me at some future date. However I want it on the record that I do not agree with any further curtailment of the provision of guidance counsellors in schools. There is need for syllabi of content for guidance counsellors for schools so that they would have some criterion on which to act. But always the role of a guidance counsellor is open to his or her interpretation because of the nature of their work on a one-to-one basis with any given student. Therefore they are very much bound by their interpretation of the situation with which they are dealing with regard to any student.

The cutbacks at second level last year have meant a worsening of the pupil/teacher ratio in second level schools. These are only now beginning to bite. They did not have the same effect last year because schools kept going, they poked about, amalgamated classes, got one teacher to take one class and another teacher to take another. Indeed it must be said that principals, vice principals and teachers performed heroic deeds in making do. But as time progresses if that pupil/teacher ratio continues more and more agonising decisions will have to be taken with regard to subject options which will result in many subjects becoming fringe ones.

Coincidentally in the course of her remarks the Minister said she was worried that particular languages were seen to be becoming fringe subjects: she may not have used the word "fringe". These were languages like Spanish, German and whatever others she mentioned. The only one that appeared to be thriving was French. The answer there is very simple, the only language that will continue to thrive will be French because schools know they must maintain one continental language in order to cope with third level entry. The reason that there is not the uptake of these subjects is the broadening of the bands of the pupil/teacher ratio. There is no point in the Minister piously saying she hopes these subjects will be taken more and more in schools, that she wishes to encourage, say, German, Spanish, Portuguese, particularly EEC languages, without there being the cash commitment to enable schools employ the teachers to teach those subjects.

As the situation stands it will not be merely German and Spanish that will become esoteric luxuries but subjects like honours mathematics for girls at senior level. One might well pose the question: will art disappear; will history disappear? There was a survey undertaken by Trinity College at the end of last autumn when it was discovered that participation by students at the higher level in history had dropped from 68 per cent to 33 per cent in a given number of years; I am not sure how many. I have asked students in various schools I have visited, for example: "do you take history here at pass and honours level in the leaving certificate?" when invariably I am given the answer: "Oh no, it is a choice between history and biology, between history and art or history and something else". That is all wrong because history is a central subject to education and not something to be regarded merely as comprising dates, numbers, battles and so on. Rather it should be regarded as an essential part of one's educational development. I say that because it is a pet subject of mine.

After Easter secondary school principals will be drawing up their schools time-tables for next September. I have spoken to one or two of them who have told me that their hands will be tied when it comes to September next and they have to put a choice of subjects options before their pupils. That choice will not be as open or as liberal as it was. The reason for that is that the pupil/teacher ratio will remain as it was with the cutbacks announced last year. Therefore, there is no point in the Minister saying that she wants to see girls taking up woodwork or boys domestic economy, something of that nature, unless the finance is provided to enable school principals to employ the teachers or otherwise improve the pupil/teacher ratio at second level. If the pupil/teacher ratio remains as it is the choice of subject options will continue to narrow. This is something that will have to be examined by the Curriculum and Examinations Board. I am particularly worried about continental languages, higher mathematics, arts, science subjects but, above all, history. The schools principals are performing trojan work in this respect but, unless the Minister rescinds last year's decision on the pupil/teacher ratio, subject choice will continue to narrow. Real action is necessary in this area. Otherwise specialist subjects will become esoteric luxuries.

We welcome also the promise of computers. Here I would urge the establishment of courses not only for teachers but for parents who want to know all about them. Certainly I do not know anything about computers but should like to know. Perhaps this is a subject that could be included in adult or third level education. I know my own children have come home and said: "you are old hat" when I do not know what they are talking about. Therefore I would welcome the establishment of some type of course for parents in order to gear them to an understanding of the whole realm of computers.

In this area the Minister spoke of the growing public concern about the proliferation of courses, agencies and groups dealing with training schemes for young people. Of course there is growing concern, not merely in educational circles. We had our annual estimates meeting of the county council yesterday when there was half an hour's debate on the overlapping of moneys, courses and agencies to deal with training schemes for young people. I would hope there would be concrete proposals from any examination of this area. Indeed I would advocate greater use of the European Social Fund and its finances so that they might be used directly to fund work-related courses at senior cycle in all second level schools, not just in vocational or community schools but all second level schools. I know they would all welcome such work-related courses at senior cycle.

We could talk all day about second level education. I couple it with my commitment to the disadvantaged area of primary education. I have a strong commitment to the working out of a better life for students at second level. I associate with that, of course, a better life for teachers at that level because I know from talking to teachers and friendship with many of them that they welcome the proposals of the Curriculum and Examinations Board. Society blames the education system and says that it is the fault of the schools for turning out students not knowing enough about everyday living.

However, for a long time the teachers had wanted to expand educational curricula but because they had ramparts around them through the examination system they had to try to cope. I know the difficulties of going into a class of fifth or sixth year students, going into leaving certificate, faced with having to do A, B, C, D, which had to be got through — so many books of history, so many poems, so many Shakespearian plays. All of this is highly necessary, but there is so little time to deal with what one would like to do or talk about to students. Within their class structures most if not all teachers try to relate their subjects to real life, but the whole time the examinations press upon the teacher and the pupils and, of course, there is the pressure from parents who see the examination system as the only way their sons or daughters can get further education or some sort of a job — parents saw examinations as the passport to these things. The pressure on the students has been unbelievable. They are far too young to be caught up in such pressures. The parents were at them to study to get their examinations.

All that will still be part of the system, but there is much more to second level education than getting A, B, C and D after the student's name at the end of the course. I repeat what I said on the radio, that I have seen far too many young people in tears and tatters with their feelings of self-consciousness and self-worth diminished, sometimes for life, because of what they got or did not get in their intermediate or leaving certificate examinations. This is wrong and it must be changed, and if the Minister does that I will be with her all the way in the curricula changes she hopes for.

The chapter dealing with third level education has a number of suggestions. Among them are ideas to make courses more cost effective, rationalisation of courses, restructuring of some third level courses, reviews of regional colleges, sharing of resources. They are sensible things which a person in a tight economic situation would come up with in an effort to make resources stretch. Many of them are admirable and useful as a backdrop or a jumping off point for a wider debate on third level education. However, a basic problem will remain, and this is when I come back to my carping. There are huge numbers of young people to be educated at third level within an unexpanded education budget. That is the real problem. More and more young people have been going into third level education and they will be until the end of this decade and until the end of the next. The numbers will continue to grow until they level off — that is the forward demographic prognosis.

We have huge numbers of young people to be educated at that level but we have not got an expanding education budget to cope with it. The Minister said there will have to be consultations and thorough investigations into third level education. It demands a very high level of political will and of finance to cope with the problem. In the past 12 months there has been a carefully fostered feeling that the student is somewhat to blame. There is a sort of general imputation of guilt. Indeed universities have been known to adopt a very defensive attitude, as if they were rushing to the ramparts with apologies instead of bayonets. They have been defensive in their efforts to explain themselves, what they are and what they are about. I do not think this is healthy or right. There has been a reiteration of the high cost of education without considering the corollary of the high cost to parents or what the young people will give back to society when properly educated. This general imputation of guilt is not good for young people. I have been to different universities in the past month addressing meetings of different societies and I have found that an awful threat hangs over young people in third level colleges.

First of all, there is the worry about jobs — will they or will they not get jobs? We are all concerned with huge unemployment figures. Then there is the threat of examinations — that has always been there for young people. There is also the knowledge that third level education is costing their parents so much and they wonder if the parents can afford it with less take home pay. The grants have not gone up in the past two years, and for that I blame both the previous and present Governments. Young people cannot get summer jobs except occasionally. All these exert great pressure on third level students. They have got to prove themselves. There is room for debate on the proper use of education and the need for education that is beyond the strictly educational sense.

In her speech and in her book the Minister referred to the possibility of the introduction of a student loan scheme in third level education. This is one of my hobby horses. I do not think the suggestion stands up to scrutiny. Today the Minister referred to the student loan/grant scheme as distinct from a student loan scheme. I do not know what this scheme is about yet. I do not think a student loan scheme would stand up to scrutiny, particularly in the present economic climate with such a large measure of job uncertainty for graduates. In more favourable economic times Fianna Fáil would be prepared to examine such a scheme, but the Minister and the Government must realise that if students were compelled, through an inadequate educational grant system, to take up loan schemes, they would be facing life not only without job certainty, but with the added burden of a financial albatross hanging around his or her neck when leaving college — no job and a loan to pay back starting life. It is not a happy scenario and I do not think it is one we should envisage at all.

The chairman of the Curriculum and Examinations Board in a recent speech reported in The Irish Times seemed to have very advanced knowledge of what such a loan scheme might be. He defended the educational cuts. The first question I would ask about such a loan scheme is: who would decide which applicants would qualify for such loans? Where would the relativities lie? Would they lie with the finance institutions? If so, that could lead to great discrimination. A manager in charge of a finance company would have the power to say to a would-be student at third level, “You will get a grant”, and to another, “You will not”. There is enormous potential for discrimination there. Would an applicant entering a technological discipline be more favoured than one entering an arts or humanities course? There could be a great danger there. If there is great expansion in the use of computer technology, engineers will be sure of getting a job, so their bank managers would consider them a safe bet for a loan, while the opposite might be the result for someone deciding to study for a BA degree and this could lead to discrimination.

Also there could be sex discrimination. Boys might be considered potentially more employable than their female counterparts. I know we have gone beyond the day when girls on marriage, gave up their jobs to push the pram. Nowadays they do both — but not at the same time. The financial institutions would want to get their loan back, considering it, not from a scholastic or philanthropic but from a financial angle. They would be giving out money which they would expect to get back. The situation would be fraught with difficulties and needs a much wider debate. I do not want to read in the papers or hear on the radio that the Minister has announced the details of a students loan scheme. That would be completely unfair to parents and young people.

Right now, the young are making their choice of course. The CAO application forms are out and the parents are counting their pennies to see if they can afford to give their children third level education, apart from their academic qualifications. They need to know what the economic climate will be when their child goes to college next October and the Minister is fond of forward planning. I have many reservations and have considered the matter in great detail. I do not care what Professor Dale Tussing said or what the American system is; I do not agree with it in the present Irish economic climate. I hope that there will be no student loan scheme and that the grant scheme will be greatly expanded. I call on the Minister to open up a debate on this issue and on third level education. Parents and young people are extremely worried and confused. I have had many letters from both students and parents saying that they do not agree with this proposal and I do not, either. Now is the time for a full statement on this matter.

Two major topics are mentioned in the document, one being the primary school starting age. This is linked cleverly with the idea of going from primary into secondary school and it is in that context that the debate will be launched upon the unsuspecting public. It will not be a stark question of whether a child will go to school at four or not. Eventually, however, the question will boil down to that. We should debate everything and talk about everything. My party and I are not intransigent or entrenched on the matter, but we opt for a continuation of the right of choice as heretofore. The choice of entry age rests with the parents, but the choice should start at four years. Some children are socially ready for school at four and others are not. Historically, that choice has always suited the Irish educational scene. No parents would push a child to school at four, but if they are ready, it should be open to send them. I do not countenance in any way a cost-cutting exercise in that area. This proposal will be cloaked in the guise of pseudo theories of various kinds and studies will be produced to show that it would be beneficial in one way or another to raise the entrance age. Whether there is a wide or a narrow debate and irrespective of the theories advanced, the right of entry at four years of age should remain.

The second area is that of teacher training. The Minister said that this was highly important and highly necessary. However, although there is a huge increase on last year, the money is nothing compared with what would be needed in this area. I am ashamed to say that I taught for many years and hardly went on a course at all. How much I would have needed and benefited from such courses. Many of the proposals in this document will be strongly dependent on in-service teacher training, particularly at first and second level. There is a great need for ongoing, comprehensive in-service training courses for teachers. There will be a completely new thinking, with curricular developments, new computer science technology, different types of classes and different structures.

The Deputy has one minute.

There should be sabbaticals for teachers who have taught for so many years, giving interrelated academic studies which would benefit teachers in their particular subjects. They should have that chance to refresh themselves. Managers go on courses for weeks on end and listen to many lectures and perhaps do a year's training in the United States; but teachers who are teaching daily, coping with various complexities, do not have these opportunities. I believe that the committee involved in such matters have given their findings and why have these not been acted upon? Will they be? I am disappointed at the Minister's tepid response to and lack of action regarding the findings of the committee, as expressed in this document.

The Deputy to conclude.

I welcome this as a plan, but it is not positive action. It is a plan of deferred educational aspirations, has much good in it and much potential, but no commitment to the resources to carry it out. I shall welcome a further action plan showing the necessary commitment.

I also welcome this debate and hope that it will result in some decisions and improvements in our educational system. The Minister's Programme for Action is an indication of the Government's intention and, as such, is very useful. It is, as it declares, a programme—it is not particularly a plan. The Minister is hopeful that it will initiate a debate, and that is my hope also, but that it be a constructive debate. Unfortunately, educational programmes and Ministers' intentions in the past have been undermined by Government dictate over the years.

In the foreword, the Minister said:

Never before have such detailed consultations been held with a wide range of educational interests;

I believe that that is an indictment of previous administrations. It is to be regretted that consultations of the level claimed by the Minister to have taken place have not resulted in a more substantial, coherent, progressive plan for expansion in education. That is something which the very young Irish population need just now.

In fact, lack of planning is one of the major weaknesses in education as, possibly, it is in most other Departments of State. In respect of third level education, the previous Minister, Mr. Richard Burke, was quite good at making decisions and made a number in the mid-seventies, but he made no plans and nothing has lasted. It is not surprising that most of his decisions were never implemented. I recall his decision to strip the NCEA of their degree-awarding powers and other decisions which were not implemented. There was no planning in them—they were just ad hoc decisions. Ministerial decisions are not just good enough, either. We recall that the 1981 Coalition Government made a decision to raise the school entry age. There was no planning or educational content in that. It was a decision made for financial reasons which we vigorously opposed.

The question then remains why there is such a lack of planning in education over the years. I am not referring to the current Minister alone. For years there was a consensus on quite a number of issues where reform was required—for instance, the examination system and closer alignment between school and work, as well as various other areas. The planning to reflect this consensus has been most deficient. Do the Department of Education not have the resources or is there something wrong with the structures which do not allow the Department to plan ahead for the educational system? Perhaps the concentration of the Department in a few buildings makes the Department clogged up with details so that the urgent is constantly driving out the important issues.

The Department of Education is the first area the Minister must tackle in any programme or any plan for education. The Department of Education, next only to the Department of Justice, is the most backward and inefficient Department of State. Any publication such as the Minister's which is even remotely connected with planning is to be welcomed. The-most important factor underlying developments in education is the level of resources, the amount of money provided. It is all very well talking of systems of bulk buying or four term academic years, as the Minister does in this document, but it will not have any major impact on putting flesh on the skeleton education service. There is no acknowledgment in the Minister's programme that Ireland is at the very bottom of the list of EEC countries in relation to per capita spending on education. This can be seen in the Education and Training Statistical Bulletin of the EEC published on 4 July last year. The Minister will probably explain that this is due to our very large young population. My party believe that this young population is the very reason why there must be higher resources provided in education and why we must provide an education system of European standards.

The real programme for action in the education field is to be seen in the Education Estimates for 1984. We note cutbacks in real terms here in every Education Vote except for residential homes and special schools. There are real cuts in training colleges, caretaker schemes, building projects and in the whole education field. Meanwhile our primary schools are very poorly provided for. One in every four primary schools have prefabricated classrooms, one in ten do not even have drinking water, three in every four do not have a telephone and one in eight of all primary classes have in excess of 40 pupils. This is a reflection of the lack of resources in the primary education area. In the light of the inadequacies of that system the failure of the Minister's programme to emphasise expansion is to be deplored. Reality is being emphasised in the programme, as the Coalition see it.

The budget this year again failed to tax wealth and left the farming sector amazed to have escaped so lightly. Our party condemn the Minister's conception of reality in relation to this programme. She and her Government see reality in terms of leaving capital, wealth and property largely untouched by taxation. This programme rejoices in not setting out a philosophy of education. It is difficult to understand from an educationalist's point of view what is wrong about setting out a philosophy on education. There is an underlying philosophy in the programme. It is not an educational philosophy, but that education must wait until the reality changes and that we do not need to plan for major changes in education because these are determined by the needs of reality, that we have not any money because of various other factors of the monetarist policy of the Government. This reality is created by the Coalition Government. They say we do not need a plan because reality will decide what the future is.

This party hold a different view, which is that education is the right of every citizen; and at a time when we have a large young population we should not be asking if resources can be found but rather where they can be found. We can name many places where they can be found. Education needs resources at the moment. Details of this programme must be examined in the light of considering its serious inadequacies as a document which seeks to provide a coherent view of action in education to 1987. The Minister has sought to have something for everyone in her plan. References are made in the programme to proposals, without anything very specific in them, regarding gifted children, section 2.35; multi-denominational schooling, section 3.8; education of travellers' children, section 4.8; and evening degree and diploma courses, section 6.9.

Positive discrimination is proposed where disadvantage is identified, but the housing and employment policies which cause disadvantage are not adverted to, as if education were alone adequate to turn around years of Government neglect. Even the 1980 White Paper took a more enlightened view of the role of education regarding disadvantaged children.

Training of teachers received special attention. Chapter 7 is devoted to this topic. It deals with the reduction in teacher-student numbers and rationalisation in colleges of education. The number in teacher training was 900 in 1981 and only 600 in 1983. That gives some idea of what is happening in the area of teacher training. The Minister failed to tackle the problem and endeavoured to cover it up.

There is a new stress on in-service training for teachers, emphasising strengthening of teacher centres. This concept would be welcomed by teachers' unions but if we look at the Estimates for this year we find there is a cut-back in real terms for such teacher centres.

The Workers' Party welcome the new approach in discussions on the age of entry. We opposed the Government's last decision which was taken as an ad hoc measure for financial reasons. A change must be made in the present system. We propose setting up over a five year period a national State system of pre-school education for children up to six years. Following the implementation of this, primary schooling would be from age six to age 14, which would include the full eight year programme up to sixth class. Such a change would give every child the benefit of the extra two years child-centred curriculum in the important years at the beginning of adolesence. This plan cannot be implemented unless and until the Government provide pre-school facilities for children up to six years of age. The development of health education up to 14 years is essential, but this programme does not mention or provide for the area of sex education in schools. This is particularly important in view of recent tragic events and my party hope the Minister will press the Curriculum and Examination Board to examine this area as a priority.

It is disturbing to note the suggestion in 2.25 that temporary accommodation is still seen as adequate for some children in the primary school area. There are old pre-fabricated buildings which need to be replaced urgently so that many thousands of children presently being educated in unsuitable classrooms are accommodated in the most conducive environment for learning. Some of the damp and draughty schools still being used date back to the last century and in some cases teachers have shown great patience in dealing with problems varying from rat-infestation to unsanitary conditions. In other areas the pre-fab has made its appearance, sometimes in the grounds of our oldest schools and in other cases providing extra classrooms in new schools built only ten or 15 years ago. They were originally intended as a short-term solution to the problem of overcrowding but many have become semi-permanent features. They are totally unsuitable as classrooms. They are not sound-proof. If two of them are located side by side there are obvious problems. They do not withstand the normal stresses and strains of daily use by 30 or 40 lively youngsters. In May or June on a sunny day they are intolerably hot. It is disturbing that in this document temporary accommodation is still regarded as acceptable.

The chapter on primary education is notable for its omission of any plan to reduce class sizes generally. One of the greatest obstacles preventing a teacher from fully utilising a curriculum to the maximum benefit of pupils is a class which is too large. A large class does not just simply exhaust the teacher but severely limits the amount of individual attention which can be given, particularly to those who need it most. Every pupil is an individual and a class of 30 or 35 will have a wide range of abilities as well as problems. They will come from various types of homes, some ideal for the upbringing of children and others with the most serious domestic problems imaginable. I was recently told of a school in Sexton Street in Limerick where in a class of 42 infants last year only five had a parent at work. It is crucial that class sizes be reduced. It is one of the most important demands to be made at present. There has been a slight improvement in the last few years but it is imperative that the pupil-teacher ratio be progressively reduced to 25:1 before the end of this decade.

There is no use talking about a ratio of 27:1, 26:1 or 25:1 when in 1979 there were 11,425 classes all over the country in which there were over 30 pupils. In 1980 there were 2,144 classes, involving 88,000 students, where there were more than 40 pupils in a class. It does not matter if the average is reduced to 20:1 if there are 88,000 students in classes of 40 or over. We must ensure that there is no class anywhere which has more than 30 pupils. Then we will be talking about real progress and not just reducing averages. We have the worst teacher/pupil ratio in Europe and yet there are 600 primary teachers out of work. Just to bring us into line with Northern Ireland we would need to employ 4,000 new teachers in the primary area.

In chapter 5 on second level education the Minister foresees no structural change whatsoever. Public finance will continue to support what are, in many cases, private facilities. Democracy in running schools is advocated but the level of real democratic control over facilities paid for by the taxpayer is sadly lacking in the voluntary second level sector. This is not noted by the Minister. A proposed re-appraisal of the so-called vocational training programme is well overdue. We call for an examination of the use of outside agencies at public cost to carry out AnCO training courses. We also note that money seems to be freely available to give young people skills when they leave school. There is no shortage of money for all kinds of courses run by AnCO for young people. However, demands for schools of a similar level of per capita resources go unanswered and are ignored. I am sure the Minister has noted this and has endeavoured to improve the level of resources available to the Department but she does not seem to be succeeding in the Cabinet against the little empires being set up in other areas.

Serious issues of concern are also raised in chapter 6, third level education. Section 6.7 begs the fundamental question about the role of universities and other third level colleges. It seems that a subtle implementation by stealth of the degree factory principle is about to take place here. The programme here is particularly deficient and this area requires planning and discussions.

In the third level area there is reference to the increased number of students receiving grants. However, only about 20 per cent of students receive any form of grant. In 1975 there were 6,168 students receiving grants but, by 1979, this had fallen to 5,541. Therefore, the Minister had a very low base from which to increase and, quite rightly, the number of students receiving grants has increased substantially. Of course as the number of students in third level education has increased enormously, the number receiving grants must increase and, therefore, the Minister's figures do not tell the whole story. While she gives figures regarding the increase in the number of students and the large increases in grants, she omitted to say that the percentage of students receiving grants now is the lowest since 1972. Her figures give a very false picture. Unless the value of the grant is increased substantially and the income limits for eligibility also increase, it will be virtually impossible for anyone from a working or lower middle class family to afford third level education. Yet this section of the community is the largest proportion of the whole population and they also pay the bulk of taxation. Their tax bill this year will amount to well over £1,100 million. They are paying the taxes but their children are not getting education.

In 1963, a survey showed that only 2 per cent of students in third level education came from semi-skilled or unskilled workers' homes. The later Nevin Survey done in UCD showed that a figure of 1.7 per cent came from semi-skilled or unskilled homes. A few years ago, the latest survey showed that only 1 per cent of the children of unskilled workers received third level education. It is clear, therefore, that the grant system must be overhauled and improved if equality of access to education is to be achieved.

There is an apparent shelving of the plans for third level educational institutions in Dublin's new towns. That is a major shock as the young people of areas like Tallaght and Blanchardstown are already starved of facilities. They are major new towns and they have not even got a community centre. There was a plan to provide third level education in these areas and it merits more than a dismissive phrase in this programme. These are new cities, the like of which we have never seen before, each with a population of 100,000, yet they are hardly mentioned in this programme.

I am opposed to student loans on the principle of the right to education. Loans give a status to education of a possession to be bought, sold or loaned and the system fails to recognise the fundamental importance of education to each individual. I wish to lay most emphasis on primary education because everybody experiences it. Only a tiny percentage go on to third level education and a relatively small percentage go through second level education. Primary education, therefore, should get major resources, major injections of capital and the major attention of the Minister. However, this does not seem to be the case.

At the beginning of this century, as a result of the School Attendance Act, mass illiteracy had been wiped out but the foundations of a very divided and sectarian education system had been well and truly laid. It was inherited by the new Department of Education in 1924 and was gradually reinforced under the new State. Boys were separated from girls in most urban schools and Catholics were separated from non-Catholics almost everywhere. Buried somewhere in the mass of political rhetoric in vogue during the following decades was the ideal of bringing Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter together. The Northern Protestant, looking South, had no doubt whatsoever that home rule meant Rome rule. Teacher training colleges and most of the education system were firmly in the hands of the Roman Catholic Church. In practically every town and country parish the most powerful man was the parish priest. He was the manager of the school even though in most cases he had no training as a teacher or educational administrator. He interviewed and hired teachers and visited the schools regularly. The State provided the bulk of the money in building grants and teaching salaries but the schools were privately owned, vested in and controlled by the clergy.

It is still the same today. There are now 570,000 children attending 3,400 primary schools around the country. The majority begin their schooling between their fourth and fifth birthdays. In 1980 it was shown that 99 per cent of five year olds had already started school. Great credit is due to teachers who, despite large classes and other problems, ensure that the vast majority of children adapt to their new environment and develop and progress in the first vital two year period. One of the greatest obstacles, however, in preventing a teacher from fully utilising the curriculum for the maximum benefit of all pupils is the size of the class.

I have already dealt with class sizes and the lack of facilities in schools. I now turn to the areas of segregation and co-education. An important and serious aspect of our system today is the division within it on the grounds of religion. The origins of this can be traced back to the period during which the national schools were being set up. The position today is that 99 per cent of all primary schools are vested in and controlled by the various churches. The Roman Catholic bishops are patrons of 92 per cent of all schools, while the Church of Ireland bishops control 6 per cent. The remaining 70 schools are vested in voluntary associations for handicapped children, the Presbyterian Church or in one or two cases the Minister for Education.

In very few instances, therefore, down through the years have children of different religions had the opportunity of attending the same schools and of learning together. There have been some exceptions to this, but the over-riding aspect has been and still is that of a segregated system which cannot be justified on any psychological or sociological grounds.

The consequences have not been so apparent here in the South, but in the North there is absolutely no doubt that separate education has contributed to misunderstanding and distrust. The creation and perpetuation of myths and inaccuracies in history, for example, is but one aspect of the problem. There are historic, economic and political reasons for the problems in the North and church authorities regularly reply that there is no proof that a divided education system has contributed to making matters worse. That there is no scientific proof is doubtful because some sociological studies have been carried out. Independent sociologists and those favouring integrated education do not, however, attract the same attention as the sectarian politicians and para-militaries.

The following question must be posed to those who see nothing wrong with a divided system: Are the gunmen and bombers who have been responsible for the terrible toll of death and injury in the past twelve years the products of an education system in which all children have been taught together through a common curriculum? The answer is no. The terrorists of all persuasions have been brought up under various family and other influences but they are also the products of an education system which is still stoutly defended by those who control it. A majority of people are now questioning the whole concept of having such segregation, not just in the North but throughout the South as well.

Is Deputy Mac Giolla circulating his speech?

I will see if I can get the facilities of the House to put it together for the Minister. Unfortunately I have not a copy.

I presume the Deputy is reading from notes.

In 1976 a detailed survey carried out by the Dalkey School Project in County Dublin showed that 64 per cent of those questioned favoured multi-denominational education. This percentage has increased considerably since then. In a similar type of survey conducted in Dublin two years later the sociologist, Fr. Michael McGreil, found that 61 per cent of those interviewed considered that separate Catholic and Protestant schools had been a major cause of division in the Northern Irish community.

At about the same time a comprehensive survey was under way in Knocknaheeny, a large housing estate on the north side of Cork city. A carefully prepared questionnaire gave people adequate scope to express opinions on local educational requirements and problems. When it was completed in 1978, 75 per cent of the people had said that when the new school was built they were in favour of children of different religions being in the one school. Only 9 per cent said they were against the idea.

The second major division within the system is that between boys and girls. The original National Board schools of the nineteenth century were co-educational and almost every single school in rural areas today is mixed. The origins of the segregated system which operates in most towns and cities date back to the decision by various religious orders of nuns and brothers to set up separate schools for boys and girls. Today 600 of the biggest schools are single sex schools and such segregation cannot be justified on any grounds.

There is no reason, except what must have been a religious reason in the last century, why boys and girls should not be learning in the same classroom. They mix at home and on the street and nobody claims that somehow it is not right or natural. Neither does anybody seriously suggest that the children of mixed schools do not benefit fully from the curriculum. There is strong evidence to suggest that not only should it be quite normal for them to mix in the school environment, as in the family and neighbourhood, but that there are important reasons why it should be advocated.

Anything that helps young people to relate to, understand and communicate with members of the opposite sex must be encouraged. This is especially vital in the last year or two of primary school as they approach adolescence and it will certainly help to avert more serious emotional and marital problems later in life.

Many cutbacks have been made in the past few years but particularly during the past year. The pupil-teacher ratio has been increased, there has been a reduction in the number of student teachers and a phasing out of the employment of caretakers and school secretaries. There has also been a cutback on the employment of remedial teachers and guidance counsellors, as well as the imposition of charges for school transport. All these measures strike at the heart of the principle of free education and equality of educational opportunity.

There is a dangerous theory being floated about which is based on the idea that the unemployed, like the poor, will always be with us and that to deal with the increasing number of unemployed we must train them to deal with so-called leisure time. Leisure facilities and leisure time are very important. We constantly look for them in our local areas and they must be catered for. Leisure is something to offer the people after a good day's work. It is not an occupation and must not be allowed to become another word for unemployment. We must plan for full employment and gear our educational system for it. It is not a dream and can be worked out. We have the natural resources together with the ability of our young people and teachers at all levels of education.

The educational area is an essential feature of job creation. Following publication of the recent ERSI report, I would suggest to the Minister that she should go back to the Cabinet and ask for a review of the cutbacks in education because of the role of education in job creation and because of the suggested outline of policy in the ESRI report, which is much more practical and in tune with what people want than the policy which has been pursued during the past 12 months.

I leith an Programme for Action in Education 1984-87, ní fheadar an bhfuil sé so-chreidthe "programme" a ghlaoch air de réir an méid choinníollacha ar a bhunaigh an tAire é sa chéad áit. Bheadh sé i bhfad níos oiriúnaí, dar liomsa, teideal mar, b'fhéidir, "a consideration of priorities in education" a chur air. Admhaím go bhfuil smaointí polasaithe ann atá inmholta agus tá mé cinnte go nglacann na múinteoirí agus na oideachasóirí ar fud na tíre leo. Ach aithníonn an tAire ceart go leor cuid de na príomh constaicí agus cuid de na príomh aidhmeanna atá á gcur isteach agus atá á bplé i gcúrsaí oideachais i láthair na huaire. Déanann sí iarracht a bheith freagrach dóibh tríd is tríd. Ach go hiondúil ní ceart a rá go n-éiríonn leis an gcáipéis seo freagra cuimsítheach a sholáthar dóibh. Sin é mo thuairim agus sin é tuairim na dTeachtaí ar an taobh seo den Dáil.

Tá díomá orm — agus bhí an mothú céanna agam le déanaí — ag tagairt di do chúrsaí Gaeilge, ag tagairt di do fhorbairt na Gaeilge nach ndearna sí iarracht dá laghad í féin Gaeilge a labhairt, agus iarraim uirthi arís, mar a iarr mé uirthi le déanaí, iarracht a dhéanamh anois Gaeilge a labhairt sa Dáil mar is ise an prime motivator, mar a déarfá. Déanann sí tagairt tríd an programme nó tríd an cháipéis do thábhacht motivation i gcúrsaí Gaeilge, do thábhacht an chúlra, do thábhacht na timpeallachta. Caithfimid timpeallacht na Dála seo a úsáid chun na daoine óga is fásta a spreagadh níos mó Gaeilge a labhairt i ngach gné den saol.

I am aware that time is limited. At the outset I want to take up statements made by Deputy Mac Giolla in relation to the ethos which has existed in our Irish schools in the Twenty-six Counties since the foundation of the State. I want to explode the myth which it is intended to promote here that, because we had a good, strong, heavy, Catholic ethos, this was a major factor or among the major factors promoting division and sectarianism in our State. I want to state unequivocally on behalf of all those on this side of the House that we make no apology whatsoever to anybody for the ethos which has existed in our national and secondary schools for 60 to 70 years.

On the contrary, the ethos which these schools inculcated played a major role in fostering good standards of behaviour and good attitudes to society. I know there have been shortcomings in recent times in that area, but those schools have played a major role in fostering an appreciation of people and environment. On this side of the House we refuse to make any apology for that. If there is evidence to suggest — and I am not satisfied with the evidence produced this evening — that the absence of multi-denominational schools is contributing to a resistance on the part of the certain elements of society in the North, I would say to those elements: "Look to yourselves. Look at what you have cultivated or inculcated in your own society. Look to the divisions you have fomented through your educational system".

Although we congratulate and compliment our national and secondary schools, nevertheless we acknowledge that there is a growing need for multi-denominational schools. By and large, the Minister has our support in so far as she has expressed that view. However, we will keep a constant monitor on this issue. At the risk of being accused of repeating myself, it should go firmly on the record that we make no apology for good standards and a very healthy Catholic ethos which has pertained to the present day in our primary and secondary schools.

This Programme for Action in Education is hardly entitled to be called a programme. It goes to quite extraordinary lengths to emphasise that its implementation is conditional on and subject to the priority which the Government accord to education within their programme of public spending. That quotation is to be found in chapter 1.4. It is also conditional on and subject to the availability of resources and the possibilities which the financial constraints permit. This kind of conditional response dilutes and diminishes what purports at the outset to be a comprehensive and specific four year plan.

I stress the word "specific" because in her preamble the Minister states that this is a specific plan. She said the programme sets out to be specific and to avoid generalisation. I find that the document contradicts that statement. Although specific areas of educational need and requirement are referred to, qualifications are multitudinous. Therefore, it is not fair or correct for the Minister to say she is dealing specifically with the situation or she has a specific plan of action.

I do not think anyone would take issue with the Minister when she stresses the need to ensure the best possible value for money. Everybody on this side of the House wants the best possible value for money spent on education on behalf of the taxpayer, a very important person nowadays, and they are becoming fewer and fewer. That point was made in chapter 1.7. Nobody would quibble with the proposal that education should relate to the relevance of the educational process to the world of work. This is an issue I intend to take up later on.

Nobody would quibble with the proposal that the barrier to equality should be removed. I am a great advocate of that. All former Ministers for Education on this side of the House have promoted equality of educational opportunity. Deputy Wilson, Deputy Faulkner, Deputy O'Malley in his time, all played very substantial and fundamental roles in promoting greater equality of educational opportunity. The facts and the statistics speak for themselves. I do not need to expound on their virtues beyond paying them a passing tribute in that respect.

Neither would anybody disagree that exceptional treatment must be accorded to the disadvantaged — another area to which I intend to devote a considerable amount of time — or that education should develop all the individual skills and qualities, spiritual, moral, intellectual, aesthetic and physical, providing what the Minister referred to as a trained mind, an openness to change, a creative approach and acceptable social skills.

There are many other fine aspirations here which must be commended by teachers, educational theorists, analysts, or legislators. I do commend them, as has my party's spokesperson. I know all previous Ministers for Education and all future Ministers for Education on this side of the House will commend these very fine sentiments. Is it not a fact that teachers are already well aware of these fundamental goals and objectives and are committed to their implementationa and realisation? Does the Minister think otherwise? Surely teachers have consistently cried out for curricula which reflect intellectual, social, cultural and economic needs and provide for the personal development of individual pupils. The teachers and educationalists are aware that they are the requirements. I am delighted the Minister spelled them out but I do not see anything fundamentally new in this approach.

Another declaration in the plan is that the programme does not propose to set out a philosophy of education. Deputies O'Rourke and Mac Giolla dealt with that matter and I should like to refer to it. I believe that any ordering of priorities within education must have philosophical overtones. I see a philosophical approach in the programme. I wonder what the Minister meant by her statement to which I referred and I trust she will get the opportunity later to clarify that matter.

Debate adjourned.
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