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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 Jan 2003

Vol. 1 No. 2

Combat Poverty Agency: Presentation.

This meeting has been convened to introduce members of the committee to the aims and key priorities of the Combat Poverty Agency and to present its analysis of the 2003 budget. I welcome our visitors, Helen Johnson, director, Jim Walsh, head of research and policy, Padraig Carmody and Fidelma Joyce. The presentation regarding the programme and priorities of the agency will be made by Ms Johnson and Mr. Walsh will deal with the assessment and analysis of the budget.

While the comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of visitors are not so protected. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or any officials, by name or in such a way as to make them readily identifiable. It is proposed to have two presentations, one on the nature of poverty and the aims of the agency and the other on the budget. Each presentation will be followed by a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed. I now invite Ms Helen Johnston to make her presentation.

Ms Helen Johnston

Good afternoon chairperson and members. On behalf of the Combat Poverty Agency I am delighted to accept the invitation to attend a meeting of this committee to discuss poverty issues in Ireland. We all need to continue in our efforts to combat poverty, particularly at a time when the economic situation is less certain and benign. We do not want to undo the progress that has been made as we continue to work towards the goal of eliminating poverty in Ireland.

The aim of the Combat Poverty Agency is to promote a just and inclusive society by working for the prevention and elimination of poverty and social exclusion. As a State advisory agency, our role is to advise the Government on how poverty can be eliminated. We do this by providing advice in an independent, informed and balanced way, conducting research into the causes of poverty, piloting and documenting approaches to tackling poverty and providing public information and education about poverty.

The Government definition of poverty is that people are living in poverty if their income and resources, material, cultural and social, are so inadequate as to preclude them from having a standard of living which is regarded as acceptable by Irish society generally. As a result of inadequate income and resources people may be excluded and marginalised from participating in activities which are considered the norm for other people in society. This means that poverty relates to the society in question rather than outright destitution. Such an understanding of relative poverty recognises that poverty involves isolation, powerlessness and exclusion from participation in society as well as lack of money. Thus, the unequal distribution of resources and opportunities contributes to poverty.

Using this understanding, how many people are poor? Two measures of poverty are commonly used here. The first is termed "consistent poverty", which is when a person has less than about €175 per week, does not have access to basic items, such as one substantial meal each day, or is not able to afford a pair of shoes or overcoat or pay everyday household expenses without falling into debt. Using this measure, the most recent data available show that 6% of the population was living in poverty in 2000, that is, slightly more than 200,000 people. However, consistent poverty fell from 15% in 1994 to 6% in 2000 due to factors such as the decline in unemployment and improvements in social welfare.

Some groups in the population have higher than average levels of poverty. Households headed by someone who is unemployed, working in the home - mainly women - or ill or disabled have relatively high poverty levels. Households where there are a large number of children - four or more - lone parent households and households with one adult living alone, mainly older women, also have high poverty levels. One of the major concerns is the level of child poverty in Ireland, although recently we have seen a considerable reduction in child poverty from 25% in 1987 to 8% in 2000. Poor children have been shown to do less well educationally, are more likely to suffer ill health, are more vulnerable to homelessness and have fewer opportunities in life.

A second way in which poverty is measured is by using income lines alone, without adding the "deprivation indicators". This measure defines the proportion of the population falling below a certain income level. Using this indicator, one fifth - 22% - of the population fell below a poverty line of about €147 per week in 2000, which amounts to more than 800,000 people. The equivalent figure in 1994 was 16%. Thus, at a time when consistent poverty has been falling, income poverty has been rising. Part of the reason for this is that incomes in the population generally grew at a very fast rate during the economic boom and while the incomes of those at the bottom of the income distribution increased, they did so at a slower rate than the growth in incomes in the rest of the population. Therefore, to tackle income poverty we need to benchmark social welfare payments to increases in wages.

While income issues are fundamental in eliminating poverty, we must also consider other structural factors. These include employment, education, health, housing and accommodation and a good environment. Participation in employment and access to quality resources, in particular, are the hallmarks of a modern society.

In describing poverty it is often easy to get caught up in statistics, which can mask the reality of poverty for those who experience it on a day to day basis. Recently, we published a report which gives expression to the direct voices of people experiencing poverty. The research, undertaken by two experienced researchers from Queens University, explored in depth the living experiences of some 30 families in the year 2000. The families were based in a suburb on the west side of Dublin, a medium sized town in the north-west and a rural area in the west.

While the report does not seek to be representative in the statistical sense, it provides an illustration of the contemporary reality of poverty in contemporary Ireland. The families in question were very poor with an average income in the region of €124 per week. This low level of income gave them very little leeway with regard to spending. Their outlay on food, for example, was nearly one third of total income, compared to a national average of 23%. Almost all of the money available to these households went on food, household bills and the needs of the children, which left them very vulnerable to shortages for regular and irregular expenses. Borrowing and indebtedness were widespread as a result. People borrowed informally from friends and relatives, but also from credit unions and banks and about one fifth of the families borrowed from moneylenders.

In general, we found that money was well managed and carefully controlled. The needs of the children and household were, in general, put first and there was consensus between partners about how the money should be spent. Bills, shortages of money and worries about the children dominated the lives of the people in question. The so-called Celtic tiger had bypassed these families and many felt more deprived in relative terms because they remained poor during the economic boom, in other words, while they could see and hear about others doing well, their situation either remained static, disimproved or only marginally improved.

One striking finding was the extent of poor health among the families in question. One in three households highlighted health problems in relation to children and parents also tended to suffer from ill health. People's chances of employment were also affected by their low income and the level of educational and other resources available to them was limited. This was a double relationship in that while incomes were low because of employment circumstances, equally, many people could not secure employment because of the low levels of educational qualification or other resources available to them.

A negative aspect of the lives of the families surveyed was their local environment. About a third of the respondents felt they did not get on well with their neighbours and almost half of the Dublin based households lived in fear of people who lived locally. Many of the adults felt bullied and picked upon and lone mothers, in particular, were very vulnerable in this regard as they felt their homes were more likely to be targeted because there was no man living with them.

The local areas also lacked amenities and services, there was a threat of burglary or attack and joyriding and drug misuse took place. Family relationships were cited as being crucial in helping people to keep going. However, lone mothers were particularly vulnerable and isolated because they lacked the support of a family and, in particular, a partner.

The study focused on the impact on children of living on a low income and 28 children aged between 11 and 16 years were interviewed. Children, too, valued their family with half of those interviewed expressing the view that their family was the best thing in their lives. The concerns of children were mainly about the pressures of trying to fit in with their peers. Wearing the right clothes was viewed as important in being accepted by their peers. This meant that, quite often, certain brand names had to be bought so the children might fit in. This had repercussions in terms of their experience at school, which, for many, was seen as a place of danger rather than of learning. One quarter of the children admitted that they had been bullied at school, often because they did not have brand name clothes or runners. Almost three quarters of the children had access to money on a regular basis. For some this was pocket money, but about one in five children actually earned some money, mainly from baby-sitting and other part-time jobs. Those who earned money actually contributed it to the household because they were very well aware that money was tight and that their parents were making sacrifices on their behalf.

Even though this is a depressing scenario in some ways, the conclusions of the study noted that there still remained a sense of optimism among the families that things could get better for them. A range of policy responses is required to ensure that that can happen. My colleague, Jim Walsh, will elaborate further on some of these policy responses.

I wish to outline a major Government response currently in place to tackle poverty in Ireland. It is the national anti-poverty strategy, entitled Building an Inclusive Society, which was launched last year by the Government. The strategy is a cross-departmental initiative and contains 36 targets to reduce poverty across the areas of welfare, employment, unemployment, education, health, housing and accommodation. It also sets targets for a number of vulnerable groups, including children and young people, women, older people, Travellers, people with disabilities, migrants and members of ethnic minority communities, and people living in disadvantaged urban and rural areas.

Some of the key targets are: to reduce the numbers of those who are consistently poor to below 2% and, if possible, to eliminate consistent poverty, which is currently at 6%, by 2007 - this applies also to the vulnerable groups; to monitor the level of relative income in line with European requirements and to achieve a minimum social welfare rate of €150 per week by 2007 and to ensure that child income support is at least one third of that rate; and to eliminate long-term unemployment.

The national anti-poverty strategy will be revised this year in line with the European requirement to submit a national plan focusing on poverty and social exclusion to Brussels by 2003. In order to monitor progress on what has happened in implementing the NAPS to date and trying to reduce poverty in Ireland, it is essential to have good information and data. We are therefore disappointed to hear one of the major instruments for monitoring poverty levels - the proposed survey of income and living conditions - will not go ahead this year because the resources are not available.

I thank the committee for its attention. I ask my colleague, Jim Walsh, to make a presentation on our analysis of the budget.

We will put questions to Ms Johnston first and have two slots. It might be a better way for her and the members to proceed.

We are all very anxious to hear what Jim Walsh has to say because I am hoping he will have a response to the budget on behalf of the poor. We could ask questions after that. From Ms Johnston we only heard about what the Combat Poverty Agency does; we all know what it does. We want to hear a response to the budget. Having listened to people on the ground I could give a response, but I would like to hear the response of the State agency.

If that is how the members wish to proceed it is okay.

That was a very appropriate introduction by the Deputy in the sense that my presentation is a macro-perspective on the impact on the budget. Obviously, it does not contain many of the details of how many individual people will be affected on the ground, regarding which the Deputies and Senators know more than me. I will give a bird's eye perspective, which is quite valuable in its own right.

I have circulated my paper, which I hope will be satisfactory. It examines the poverty implications of budget 2003. This is something the Combat Poverty Agency has been doing in recent years. We make a submission and, in this case, we are looking at the actual outcome of the budget. Tackling poverty or social inclusion has been clearly recognised as the key policy challenge of this decade. In the national anti-poverty strategy, poverty is an overarching concern, and this is repeated in the programme for Government and the PPF. In the revised anti-poverty strategy, an inclusive society is regarded as a key priority. Of course, tackling poverty is also a key part of the EU agenda, along with growth, jobs and social cohesion. As part of the commitment to make poverty an overarching concern of policy, the Government has introduced a mechanism called poverty proofing, which is a way of considering the impact of policy on poverty.

I will try to outline the agency's view on the impact of the budget on poverty. I will focus on tax/welfare policy and the extent to which it reflects an anti-poverty focus and the many policy statements. Tax/welfare is the key instrument of income redistribution. Obviously there are other important elements, such as giving people jobs and public expenditure. Income redistribution is also important. In fact, after the period of significant economic growth we have had in recent years, the challenge of tackling poverty, especially income poverty, is much more about redistributing the resources we have rather than simply being a question of jobs. We cannot rely on jobs alone.

There are a number of key Government commitments in terms of welfare and tax changes where Government has set itself a number of targets in terms of improving the living standards of people in poverty in terms of personal rates, child benefit, etc.

In presenting my analysis I will use a tax/benefit model called a SWITCH model, which has been developed by the ESRI. This can be used to assess the distributive impact of the budget as compared to a neutral impact. People will be familiar with the hypothetical examples of couples with two children or whatever during the announcement of the budget. They are extremely misleading as a way of analysing the impact of the budget on income because they reflect a minority of the population. The tax/welfare model simulates the wider population between rich and poor and takes account of all income sources, whether people are on welfare or paying tax. It gives the most comprehensive picture in terms of analysing the impact of the budget regarding income distribution.

Deputies are well aware of the context of the budget - the severe downturn in public resources as well as high inflation. The resources that were available in previous years were not available in this year's budget. If anything, that made the issue of choice much more important than in previous years. The question of how the Government should choose to allocate its scarce resources became much more significant. The total tax/welfare package was €700 million, which was only half the 2002 envelope of resources. The welfare allocation of €530 million was half that of last year. That is already setting down markers as to the expected outcome.

The welfare component increased as a percentage of the total tax/welfare package, up to 74% from 62%. Greater priority was being accorded to welfare expenditure than tax reductions. However, the child benefit proportion fell from 25% in 2002 to 15% in 2003. We will discuss the implications of that later.

I now come to the distributive impact of budget 2003. The bar chart in the slide breaks the population into five sections, from the poorest 20% to the richest 20%, and looks at the percentage change in disposable income. The bottom 40% experienced a slight gain in income compared to a neutral benchmark indexed to wage growth. Their increase was 0.2% and 0.4%. Those in the better off categories saw a decline in their relative position of up to 0.7%.

The average change in income after this budget, when compared to a neutral benchmark, is a loss of 0.2%. Lower income groups recorded a slight gain, while better off income groups experienced a modest loss. The elderly and single unemployed do best, while those with children and the employed lose out. Overall, we should see a very slight reduction in income poverty because of the redistributive focus. This is a mildly redistributive budget where the gains were modest. Gains may be offset by indirect taxes and inflation.

It is useful to set the distributive impact of this budget in a wider context and I will compare it to the previous five budgets. In previous years the gains were much more significant. The average gains in 1998-2002 were around 2%. The 0.2% gain this year is one tenth of the gain in previous years. While the gains are smaller, people on higher incomes are actually doing much worse than other groups. In the previous five budgets, the middle-income group, and to a lesser extent the higher income group, did best. The worst performers were those in the lowest quintile, who made the least gains.

Why has such a difference emerged? One reason is the amount spent in the budget. This year's budget was much more modest and was about one third of the 2001 budget. Where is the priority or focus between tax reductions and welfare expenditure? In the 2003 and 2002 budgets the focus was more on welfare than tax. A third factor is how welfare expenditure is allocated. For example, is the focus on rates or child benefits? This has an impact on who will gain.

This analysis demonstrates the key point, namely, the missed opportunity of previous years. If we had a 50-50 breakdown between welfare increases and tax reductions, we would have had an extra €1.5 billion available for expenditure on welfare. If the policy perspective on this year's budget had been replicated in previous budgets, we would have had much more money to spend. Unfortunately, the pro-welfare focus in this year's budget has come in the context of fewer available resources. Income redistribution remains a residual concern and only comes to the fore at a time of economic downturn. If we could extrapolate that trend when we had more resources, the level of income redistribution would be greater and would make a greater impact on alleviating poverty.

The €10 increase in pensions means that pensions are set to reach their target of €200 per week by 2007. However, for the lowest welfare payments the PPF 2003 target of €127 per week will not be met, it will be around €125. More significantly, there has been no advance on the national anti-poverty strategy target of having a minimum adequacy rate of €150, at 2002 values, by 2007. No improvement has been made in the qualified adult rates are a percentage of the personal rates. Partners or spouses do not get the full personal rate, they receive around two thirds of the rate. We have argued that it should be increased to 70%, as it does not take full account of the costs of a couple as compared to people living alone. Those on SWA rent supplement have also incurred losses. People in receipt of social welfare payments will have to find an additional €4 to meet their rents. Approximately 40,000 people receive SWA.

Only 25% of the promised child benefit increase was delivered. The Government established a three year programme to increase child benefit by around €38 per year. This was met in the first two years of the programme, but was not met this year. Priority was given to personal rates over increasing child benefit. No change was made to the child dependent allowances. These are the payments made to children in welfare dependent families and they have been frozen since 1993. The consequent increase for children in welfare dependent families will be around 4%, which is less than the rate of inflation and less than the wage-indexed benchmark. Children in welfare dependent families will be worse off in real terms after the budget. This is a real concern from a policy perspective.

The age-relating of general child income support has not been addressed. Older children cost more to keep, but this is not reflected in policy. This could be reformed through changes in child dependent allowances. There are currently three rates by welfare category. We have argued that the three rates should be retained, but that they should be converted to age-related rates. That has not been done, but it has been done in the clothing and footwear scheme where over-12s get a much higher rate than under-12s. There is a promise that school meals will be enhanced, but I do not have full details on it.

In relation to other issues on the tax side of the equation, the savings scheme continues to be a major drain on resources. The estimated cost in terms of income tax foregone in 2002 is around €600 million. As well as being a great deal of money, it is extremely inequitable and we have previously presented analyses which show the scheme as such, both in terms of the €13 entry point cut-off but also by virtue of the fact that top-up provisions are not targeted at low income groups. We welcomed the broadening of the tax base in this year's budget in terms of generating additional resources but we did not feel it was based on an equity strategy. In fact, some of the changes were regressive. The obvious examples are the increase in VAT and the stamp duty increase on bank accounts which will impact more on people with low incomes. Some 25% of the bench-marking costs for public sector pay were allowed for in this budget, amounting to some €600 million. That is equivalent to the total expenditure on social welfare which raises issues about Government priorities. We are further concerned that unemployment is set to worsen again which, together with the cutbacks in various schemes, could have a negative outcome.

Where do we go in terms of future tax welfare policy? We would like to highlight a number of issues here. It is important that the redistribution focus of this and last year's budget is not only maintained but magnified by having more resources available for redistribution. In order to do so, we cannot rely on economic growth but need to broaden the tax base to generate more tax revenue to fund increases in welfare provision. We suggest some tax breaks are removed such as PRSI, corporation tax, carbon tax and so on but the key aspect is that it should be based on an equitable strategy. In terms of the welfare side, we feel there is a need to prioritise people on the lowest payments based on a comparative adequacy measure. We do not agree with the approach whereby those on higher payments get higher increases while those on lowest payments get a lower increase. We favour targeting those on lower rates and pulling them up from the bottom.

We need to continue to strengthen support for children and families with a mix of universal and targeted measures. There is a need to ensure a speedy delivery of the increase of universal child benefits. We see it as an important universal provision but it needs to be complemented by targeted measures such as through the child dependent allowance and age-relating it as well as school meals provision.

In terms of the policy context in which the budget was framed, we have a strong policy framework on tackling poverty with the national poverty strategy, building an inclusive society, programme for Government and so on but the focus is on targeted and ring-fenced measures specifically for the poor. Unfortunately, the bigger and more expensive issues of income redistribution is a weak component of the current policy framework. It is more focused on targeted measures rather than on the bigger issue of income redistribution. We see a need for clear targets on reducing Ireland's high levels of income inequality and relative income poverty. These targets would be used to drive policy over the coming years and provide an opportunity in the revision of the EU national action plan for poverty to include those targets. By setting these targets in an EU context we could then move to approach an EU norm in terms of relative income poverty and inequality.

I ask my colleagues for precise questions to our visitors today.

I thank the representatives of the Combat Poverty Agency for attending. What is their reaction to CORI's comments on the budget which described it as unfair, unjust and unacceptable with the Government again insulting the poorest people in Ireland? How many points from the Combat Poverty Agency's pre-budget submission were taken on board by the Government? I note that it is a statutory agency, advising the Government on policy, but it looks like the three wise men have more power than it does in relation to the poor and they seem to have won out again on this occasion. We will have to see at a later stage whether they will win out on child benefit.

As I listened to the submission, I realised that while we once had a budget every year, we now have one every hour. I am surprised that the statutory agencies are not crying out more for people, particularly those depending on social welfare. A €6 social welfare increase would hardly buy a loaf of bread with recent price increases. Every day I listen to mothers tell me they are unable to live because food prices are increasing on a day-to-day basis.

As to the Government's attack on children, it gave a three year commitment on child benefit but I was not surprised when, last year, half of that was honoured before the election. Yet this year, when mothers and children need that increase most, the Government has let them down. Now that we are heading towards bad times, people cannot justify that the poor should pay the price. However, that seems to be the message coming from the Government and the three wise men.

I wish the CPA, as a State agency, would speak out more strongly to say that it is unacceptable that people on low incomes got an increase of only €6 last December. Already, local authorities have written to people asking for an assessment of their income and household budget in the context of their council rents. In some cases this means they will lose €3, €4 or €5, so the budget increase is wiped away - and that is without taking account of food prices and VAT increases to ESB charges.

I am disappointed the State agencies are not more active. It is my job as Fine Gael spokesman to express these views because - although I do not like to say so - the poor now feel nobody represents them. I share that view because what happened in the last budget should not have happened. When things are bad, one should look after the less well off. When things are good, we expect this to be the case and this Government has given increases but, in recent months, the increases have been wiped out with price rises and inflation which, the experts tell us, will soon be 6%. Does the CPA think the €6 increase in social welfare was justified and will it make a recommendation to Government that it introduce some sort of Supplementary Estimate to increase social welfare rates? For the first time in many years, people are coming to my constituency office saying they cannot live on social welfare payments on a day-to-day basis.

The biggest scandal which the Government got away with relates to the euro changeover. People were ripped off during the changeover period and that was the start of their problems. Even before the budget, people were complaining because, whatever value they had with the pound when the euro was introduced, they were ripped off.

I was disappointed we did not see the Government's promises on child benefit. The €15 benefit for people with child dependants has not been raised for many years. Mr. Walsh made the point that we are not taking into consideration children from birth to 18 years. Every year they get older and more expensive and the State does not take that into consideration. My colleague, Deputy Paul McGrath has, for many years, raised the fact that dependent children are being paid at three different rates for different categories. I note the CPA referred to this in its submission.

Under the Constitution, the children of this country are supposed to be equal. Why do people on different benefits get different allowances for their children? The State should treat all children equally and pay one rate, which should be the highest of the three currently in existence. We should all be aiming for this and we should be encouraging the Government to treat children equally. The people out there are angry, annoyed and hurt and they are feeling the pinch. We, as public representatives, will hear a lot more of that.

The previous speaker mentioned moneylenders. That business will be the fastest growing in the country this year. The Department of Social and Family Affairs should look into this and try to help people on low incomes. They could give people some sort of interest-free loan to get them through this crisis. There is a major crisis out there.

I welcome our colleagues from the Combat Poverty Agency. Their comments were interesting, if not very exciting. It is difficult to get excited about an increase of just €6 for the poorest members of society at a time when there has been a 4.8% decrease in support from the health boards towards rent.

I want to talk about rural areas. Before the delegation came in, I raised the issue of farm assist and how it is of benefit to the segment of people it is supposed to represent. We were told when it was introduced on 7 April 1999 that it would benefit 15,000 families. We were told last Thursday by the Minister for Agriculture and Food that the number is 13,500. I was told that 8,500 were involved at a maximum and the average income from farm assist was about €6,500. Fewer than 3,000 are receiving more than €7,500. Would the Minister agree that it is extremely misleading for a Minister to state that €13,500 is available, when this can only be obtained by a family consisting of husband, wife and three children with no income whatsoever? This is a cause of major dissension among the better off and means that taxpayers regret the fact that farm assist is available at all, although many people are benefiting from it.

Is there any comment to be made on rural poverty? I fully accept that there is serious poverty within housing estates and so on, because we have them in Monaghan, but in rural areas, post offices are being wound down, Garda stations are being closed and suicide among rural dwellers is increasing. Do the members of the delegation have any comment on the seriousness of this issue? Ms Johnston mentioned high inflation in her speech, referring to the situation before the budget, but neither of the speeches dealt with inflation in the wake of the budget, resulting from VAT increases and increases in the price of food, car tax and car insurance. In rural areas, there are no bus services.

There is still a serious problem with low pay. If someone was on low pay and could not obtain a medical card, he or she used to have the option of going back on social welfare and receiving a medical card for a three-year period before returning to low-level employment. Nowadays, within weeks of a person losing or leaving his or her job, he or she is harassed by social welfare to go back into employment. There is a group of low-income families which is really feeling the pinch at the moment. They cannot get medical cards if they have an income of £170, or €220, for a husband, wife and three children. A single person on €129 cannot obtain a medical card. These are real issues at a time when some of the wealthiest people in the country can obtain medical cards and free health services. Is it any wonder, referring to the comment made in Ms Johnston's speech, that there is not only poverty but also sickness within these low-income families?

We are not looking after these people in our health service. They should be have priority access to medical care at the earliest possible stage. If this were the case we would not have the crisis in the health sector this week which has resulted in people lying on trolleys and in ambulances. Those are the people who need to be targeted and I hope that the agency will push the issue of medical cards for low income families, because although it may not be possible to get the actual €6 increased, it should be possible to have the medical card introduced for those people.

We previously discussed the issue of widows and widowers in another context. What is the agency's comment on how the Government can justify giving a lower widow's or widower's pension to the young widow or widower who is left without a breadwinner and obliged to stay at home to look after the children than to somebody who may not have chick nor child to look after? It is totally unjustified.

Mr. Walsh's analysis was that during the Celtic tiger years the expenditure was geared towards the better off and now that the money has dried up there seems to be an attempt to focus on the poor. This is a typical example of locking the stable door after the horse has bolted. The bottom line is that the poor are worse off as a result of the budget. My colleague, Deputy Ring, mentioned the agency's priorities for the budget and the advice it gave to the Minister on that subject. There were eight priorities and the deterioration in the domestic finances was taken into consideration. As far as I can see, none of the eight has been delivered in full, although I am open to correction. That this agency is charged with advising the Minister on the issue of poverty, yet none of its eight priorities has been dealt with in full, is an indictment of Government policy on poverty. The agency should be speaking out more on this.

From what I hear from constituents, the cutbacks in the back to work scheme and the community employment schemes are only beginning to hit now. They are hitting the poorest people, those who are trying to get an extra few bob to care for their children or to make ends meet. I find, on a regular basis and over the last few weeks in particular, that people who have been cut off from unemployment schemes, representing the poorer sections of the community, are being hit hard. I would like the representatives to comment on that.

I agree with the remarks on the increases in welfare allowances. Inflation is starting to hit and it will become worse. People will be worse off six months from now than they were six months ago. Previously, there was a scheme where the Government gave money to credit unions that was specifically targeted at those who found themselves in financial difficulties. Has that scheme disappeared? It was very useful in the past and served a real purpose.

Are the same indicators used throughout Europe? Will it be possible to abolish poverty by 2007? Reference was made to the fact that people were not getting a hot meal every day. That is staggering. We should subsidise school meals and target children, the most vulnerable members of society. Education and good diet are intrinsically linked.

The amount of money in a person's pocket is one indicator of poverty, but another is the availability of public facilities. What weighting is given to those facilities? A lack of public transport would be a disadvantage, as would the lack of sporting facilities.

Is there evidence that those on a lower income experience worse health than those in higher social classes? Are cigarette smoking and alcohol abuse more prevalent among those caught in the poverty trap?

Ms Johnston

The Combat Poverty Agency is an advisory body. It carries out research, provides public information, introduces pilot schemes, documents the lessons from them and advises the Government on how they should be revised. Part of our remit is to represent people living in poverty and we support and facilitate other organisations doing that. We are inclined to support groups in making their cases heard rather than saying we can represent them because, as a State agency, we have an advisory role rather than a representative role.

We made the eight budget proposals Senator Cummins mentioned. We costed them, but the total cost of our recommendations exceeded the amount that was available in the budget. It is difficult to estimate before the budget how much will be available on the day because the amounts vary depending on the analyses. None of our proposals were implemented in full, but a number were substantially implemented. One proposal that was implemented was the increase of €6 . We had recommended that the increase be between €9 and €11 per week and we emphasised an additional €5 for the lowest welfare payments. The €6 available in the budget went a substantial way towards that, but we were disappointed that more emphasis was not placed on the lowest payments. That would have made more of a difference to those struggling to survive on a low income.

We advocated a higher increase in child benefit payments but we were disappointed, although we realise that this is an expensive instrument. We want to look at the cost of raising children. There was a study in 1994 to examine that cost, but it is now out of date. We want to revisit it and look at the appropriate policy responses to the cost of raising children, perhaps through universal payments such as child benefit, complemented by more targeted measures such as the CDAs or other possibilities. Our study of living on a low income highlights the inadequacies of some of the payments. The budget went some way to addressing that, but we need to go much further.

Deputy Crawford emphasised rural poverty and focused on the farm assist scheme. We undertook a study a few years ago which looked at levels of income among farm households and we found 30,000 living on a very low income. There were three categories involved. A proportion of low income farm households had access to off-farm employment, through which they could supplement their income and so were less at risk of poverty than some of the others. Some were reliant on social welfare payments and were older, reaching retirement age, and able to access the farm assist scheme. However, a small but important proportion of farm households was totally reliant on farm income to support them and their families and there would be concern about measures to address their levels of poverty. We made recommendations in that regard around the farm assist scheme and the structure of some of the farm payments.

Rural poverty is an issue about which we are concerned. Issues in rural areas, such as income levels and educational disadvantage, are similar to those in urban areas. There are particular questions in rural areas about access to employment, training for jobs and provision of employment and services. I agree with some of Deputy Crawford's comments about post offices.

Barr
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