SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Nov 2002

Vol. 1 No. 2

Estimates for Public Services, 2002.

Vote 5 - Central Statistics Office (Supplementary).

Chairman

On behalf of the select committee, I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Hanafin, and her officials. The purpose of the meeting is to consider Supplementary Estimates for Vote 5 for the Central Statistics Office, which falls within the remit of the Department of the Taoiseach, Vote 2 for the Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament, which comes under the Department of Finance, and Vote 44 for flood relief, which is also under the Department of Finance.

I ask Members to consider agreeing the timetable circulated with the briefing yesterday. It allows for an opening statement by the Minister of State and an open discussion on the Supplementary Estimates in the form of a question and answer session on each Vote. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will now consider the Supplementary Estimate for Vote 5 on the Central Statistics Office. I invite the Minister of State to make her opening statement.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Ms Hanafin)

I thank the Chairman and the committee for taking this Supplementary Estimate for the Vote of the Central Statistics Office.

The Central Statistics Office seeks approval for a Supplementary Estimate for 2002 of €1.101 million. This relates to expenditure relating to this year's census of population, where additional funding is required to meet unanticipated extra commitments. In addition, it is necessary to provide for an expected shortfall in the appropriations-in-aid subhead. In 2002, the CSO has incurred exceptional costs amounting to approximately €2 million in gross terms on census of population forms and holiday entitlements. At the same time, revenue from EUROSTAT in respect of the census of agriculture will arrive later than originally forecast, leaving a shortfall in the current year of approximately €714,000 in appropriations-in-aid. The CSO has managed to absorb most of these exceptional items from within its original 2002 allocation, largely due to the availability of €1.3 million core savings carried forward from 2001. The requested Supplementary Estimate is to address the balance, which cannot be met from within the original allocation.

As part of the collection phase of the census of population - the census field operation - the CSO employed approximately 4,000 part-time enumerators. When sanction was originally sought from the Department of Finance for moneys to conduct the census of population, holiday payments for enumerators were not factored in. It was considered that, as these enumerators were employed by the CSO on a temporary part-time basis for a ten week period, they were not entitled to any holiday payments. Following the conclusion of the census field operation, a number of enumerators applied to the CSO for holiday pay. The issue was examined and legal advice was obtained from the Attorney General's office. The advice suggested that the enumerators were entitled to holiday pay, in accordance with the Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997, and the Protection of Employees (Part-Time Work) Act, 2001. Based on that advice, the CSO is in the process of making payment to the enumerators.

Most of the CSO's receipts are subventions from EUROSTAT to help set up new activities. The level of EU funding available has fallen in recent years and EUROSTAT has concentrated the available funds on new statistical areas. The bulk of the EU funding received by the CSO in recent times relates to agricultural surveys, farm structure surveys and the census of agriculture. The CSO is to receive a total of €1.65 million over a two to three year period, in respect of the June 2000 census of agriculture. Stage payments are made with the balance being paid on submission of final data. To date, the CSO has received first and second advances amounting to €800,000. Contacts with EUROSTAT indicate that the balance due will be received in 2003.

Deputies will be aware that the census of population was scheduled for 29 April 2001 but was postponed on the recommendation of the expert group on foot and mouth disease. One consequence of the decision to postpone the census was that the relevant forms had to be reprinted. These forms had to be of a high quality as scanning technology was employed in the processing. The cost of re-printing the forms was €1.248 million and payment was scheduled for just before the end of 2001. The CSO had concerns about the quality of the specimen forms made available by the printers and insisted on additional quality checks prior to making payment. Having satisfied itself that the quality of the forms was up to the required standard, the CSO paid for the forms in February-March 2002. The prudence and good management practice adopted by the CSO in order to ensure value for money in public expenditure is to be commended.

Discussions took place between the CSO and the Department of Finance with a view to carrying forward the unspent budget for forms from 2001 into 2002. Unfortunately, the timing of this issue was such that it was not possible to facilitate the increased level of carry forward. This issue restricted the flexibility of the CSO to absorb the effects of the unanticipated expenditure in relation to holiday pay and of reduced revenue flows in 2002. The cost of the Supplementary Estimate will be financed through savings made elsewhere in the same Vote group.

I commend this Supplementary Estimate to the committee and thank the Members for their attention.

Mr. R. Bruton

It is difficult to dispute the issues that have given rise to this overrun, which the Minister of State has explained well. However, it is not clear how the CSO will make good on the overrun, which is estimated at €2 million. What services will be cut back by the CSO? The office is a lifeline for good economic planning yet the Minister of State proposes to reduce its allocation by €2 million this year and, more seriously, by a massive amount next year. She will reply that the census was an exceptional item but next year's outturn will be €7 million less than that for 2001. That represents a cut of approximately 16% in the office's budget.

What is the underlying change in the operation of the CSO? We are all interested in economies and better approaches to managing public funds but the salary element of the Estimate will increase while cuts will be made to the service element of the office's operations. Any central statistics office would be brought into disrepute if its enumerators were sitting in offices unable to do the work for which they were employed. I am seriously worried, as someone who avails of the CSO's services and who has witnessed significant improvement in the way in which it has developed its operations. The office has a good website but the allocation for it has been reduced to one quarter of what it was in 2001 and I have misgivings about what is happening in regard to the office.

I would like the Minister of State to be up front and honest. What will be cutback? Where will be CSO's services be squeezed? What impact will that have on enumeration in important economic and social areas? We need and rely on the CSO in this regard. We have had ample examples of cock-ups by the Government. For example, most recently the Government did not even anticipate the number of people over 70 when it extended the medical card scheme as it miscalculated by almost 50% the number of people who would claim. To cut back the CSO's Estimate this savagely means one is being wise with pennies but pound foolish. I have concerns about what is happening in the CSO and I would like assurances.

Ms Burton

The Minister of State referred to advice from the Attorney General regarding the additional holiday pay for part-time census enumerators. Is the advice in the public domain? If not, could she elaborate on it because this raises an important point regarding the public service in general? For instance, all of us are aware of the position of part-time teachers, traffic wardens and school wardens employed by local authorities. The Attorney General has made a welcome decision which has profound implications for the public sector in terms of a number of temporary or part-time occupations which have not been recognised in terms of holiday pay.

People who apply to work in the school warden service must sign on with FÁS and obtain two or three references from employers to prove they are seeking work. Will the Minister of State elaborate on the Attorney General's advice in regard to part-time occupations because it is a critically important point for the public service and has substantial pay implications if it is generalised as opposed to specialised?

Mr. Finneran

The Department felt it was obliged legally to give people holiday pay. Could those involved have been employed on a contract basis rather than on a part-time basis with implications for holiday pay? That would have been one way to address the issue given that a ten week period was involved. I would like the Minister of State to comment on whether it could have been dealt with in such a fashion. If there are implications for groups of workers outside the CSO, it would be as well if we were informed about that now.

Dr. Twomey

This is an interesting point. New Estimates could be required next week to address the pay implications for part-time workers employed in various State agencies. I would be interested in examining a copy of the contract of employment involved as well as the Attorney General's advice.

Ms Hanafin

I thank Deputy Bruton for his comments on the value of the CSO's work, which all of us recognise. As a user of the service, he will be aware that much of the office's work is cyclical in nature. For example, the census and household budget survey are conducted every five years while the census of agriculture takes place every ten years. The budget, therefore, varies from year to year. One way to make up next year's shortfall in funding is through the money due from EUROSTAT for the agricultural census which was not paid this year. We are confident the €850,000 that is due will be paid next year because the work has been completed.

Moving forward, some activities proposed by the CSO will be limited. For example, the processing of the census of population will not be completed in 2003 to the level of detail that had been hoped. Statistics relating to place of work and journey to and from work will not be coded. All the census information will not be completed in the same way. The EU survey on income and living conditions will probably not commence next year and will be put back to the following year. The amount to be invested in the management investment framework will also be cutback.

However, the core work of the office will continue in terms of implementing its IT strategy and undertaking statistical work which is valuable to people. This is the first time a Supplementary Estimate has been sought for the CSO and, given the unusual circumstances relating to the census and EUROSTAT, that is not likely to be repeated.

With regard to the questions on holiday pay, I do not know if the Attorney General's opinion is available. I will check that for the Deputy. The people were employed on a casual basis for ten weeks. On further consideration it was found that they were covered not just by the protection of employees legislation of 2001 but also by the 1997 Act. It was on foot of reconsideration of both of those that the decision was made by the Attorney General. I doubt that it was a knock-on effect of that but I do not have the opinion to hand. I would need to check it.

Chairman

Are there any further questions?

Mr. R. Bruton

I do not support slowing down the processing of the census. We spent a lot of money, as the Minister acknowledged, getting this up to date information. It is already a year behind schedule because of the foot and mouth disease problem in the previous year. The census is producing figures on housing patterns and origin and destination patterns in relation to planning of traffic and housing and it is short-sighted to delay the timely processing of that information.

This is, unfortunately, part of the pattern that has been adopted in this year's Estimates which consists of just getting within a budgetary target that has been set, regardless of the standard of service that is produced. This is a bad day's work. I do not support shelving the processing of the census.

Ms Hanafin

The processing of the data has been faster than ever. Deputies will have noticed that within three months we had the initial population figures on a DED basis. All the standard processing is going ahead. The fact that the forms could be scanned in has increased dramatically the time scale involved. However, it is the individual coding of further elements of it which might not happen next year. It will be of the usual high standard and probably even higher, given the use of technology.

I accept the Deputy's comments about the census. Some weeks ago I ordered a copy of the census report for every Member of the House but demand was such that they are out of print. As soon as more are ready, I will make them available to everybody. However, it is on the website.

Mr. R. Bruton

Could the Minister of State arrange that the CSO assemble the data by local authority wards? There is considerable interest in this, with the local elections being held in 2004, as people will be able to see the population movements in the existing wards. I asked the Department for a reply to this request but I was referred to the website. I can add, but not to the extent that would be necessary to replace a machine that can probably produce such information with little trouble. Perhaps the Minister of State will consider facilitating councillors by assembling information on the population movements in existing local authority wards.

Chairman

Is that information available or obtainable?

Ms Hanafin

It is available on a DED basis, which is all very well if one's local authority area happens to include complete DEDs. All one need do then is add them together. If, however, it crosses over DEDs, it would be more difficult. The figures in the census and in the published document are quite detailed and they will be broken down further in the next publication. I do not know whether the office will be able or willing to do it for political purposes for local authorities, but I will look into it.

Ms Burton

The Minister of State, as a former local authority member in the greater Dublin area, will be aware that the problem in the councils which comprised the former Dublin County Council is that the number of councillors serving large populations is now at an extreme level. In my ward in Castleknock, for example, I serve an electorate of 9,000 as a local authority member. Blanchardstown, which has a population of 72,000, has eight councillors. Compare these figures with those for counties such as Laois, Roscommon and Leitrim and areas such as Mullingar. Not only do those areas have full local authorities to cover significantly smaller populations but there are also town councils and town commissioners for prominent towns.

That is only right. However, there is a problem in areas of greater Dublin where the number of councillors, by world standards, is astonishingly small to serve large populations. We need a report on that to facilitate proper representation. The county managers have been attempting to get the information for me but we need a report that will set it out explicitly.

Chairman

Is that a matter for this committee or does it come under the remit of the Department of the Environment and Local Government?

Ms Hanafin

It is a matter for the CSO. I do not know if Deputy Burton has seen the report but the information it provides is most helpful and clear. The Deputy offered the example of Blanchardstown. In one of the eight areas in Blanchardstown, the report gives not just the figures but also the comparative figures for 1996. One can instantly see the figure was 13,131 in 1996 and 24,500 in 2002. In other areas the report shows a 66% increase and a 61% increase. The information is readily available in the preliminary report and is on the website. It should be of great use to public representatives.

Chairman

There being no further questions, has the Minister of State any concluding comments?

Ms Hanafin

No. I thank the committee and the CSO for the valuable work they do. We will be happy to provide the Deputies with the information they need.